Re: We are all Slave now.
 

The conversation we are having is, why does Sebby insist that some people who knowingly and intentionally do racist things are, nonetheless, not "racists"?

Saying that you are "not comfortable calling him a racist" nicely gets at the key to this little debate, which is that it's about your comfort rather than some distinction in other people's behavior that you can describe or explain.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Actually, you and I agree. You cite two sub-groups of conservatives. (I'd cite three, including "just don't care about race issues," but that's immaterial here.)

Adder sees all conservatives as racists. That's cuckoo pants.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

You spelled "Shteyngart" wrong.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....4,203,200_.jpg

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

As that article explains, Bush talked about Horton on the stump for months before the ad was made. You are so uncomfortable calling someone a racist that you are unwilling to call them a racist when they go in front of large crowds repeatedly to say racist shit, and then pay employees to turn it into a TV commercial. From what I can tell, you are unwilling to call someone a racist unless they go and say bluntly, I am a racist. (Then you think they deserve the label for being so déclassé as to admit it openly.)

Yes, it's a total mystery why Bush talked about Horton on the stump, or Atwater and Ailes ran those ads -- all those pocketbook voters were just ignoring the fact that Horton was black, and the ads didn't really explain how he was going to prevent them from fully deducting their business expenses.

So that we can have a more useful conversation about this, I am willing to stipulate that NOTHING I say about anyone, at any time, has anything to do with your grandparents unless I explicitly say so, or unless I say something nice, however unlikely that is.

And so does Adder.
 

Accepting your definition of the term "racist" just for this post only, I completely agree with you.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I explained it perfectly. A contractor voting for Trump purely so he can get work on Keystone XL? Racist?

You can't get around that, so you say it's a distinction without a difference, because impact is impact. I say, agreed in part. I think impact can be a basis on which to call someone a racist.

The question is how do we measure when the threshold for such impact to allow for such indictment has been met?

This stuff gets terribly subjective. And yet so many seem so certain they know. You yourself don't even know the answer to that question. just a few posts ago, you recognized the difference between aiders and abettors of racism and racists, but could not offer a rule as to when one bled into the other.

My only point is Adder's rule, where almost everyone was a racist, is not wise way to make the measurement. If you disagree with that, I think you're viewing this issue a bit illogically.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

No, I agree that not everyone who voted for Trump can fairly be called a racist. What I have been saying has been more aimed at people who identifying with the GOP, who continue to support and represent the party even though it keeps doing racist stuff. The difference between us is that it takes much less for me to decide that someone is complicit in racism when they work to make common cause with and empower racists. You're not wiling to call someone a racist even if they turned William Horton into Willie Horton to get elected President.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I don't know what Seb is typically trying to say, so i am usually not trying to help him out.

I took Adder's point to be wanting to keep jobs in the US as opposed to being shipped to Asia as being racist, since the workers that "benefit*" in Asia would be Asian? But isn't keeping work here possibly something one can wish for simply for the benefit of this country- I mean lots of union folks- black/white/brown support that concept- the MAGA hats are not the only ones on the boat.

*and from lots I've read there are a lot of working condition horrors out there, so "benefit" is surely not certain.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Let me ask you a serious question. If Trump murdered 30 people with his bare hands because they looked at him funny and ran on the fact that he loves murder, and that same contractor voted for Trump purely so he can get work on Keystone, are you willing to concede that that voter is okay with murder as long as he gets what he wants?

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Yes.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

But you stop at the point when someone says his vote is a vote for murder because he's just okay with his President being a murderer and doesn't enjoy murder himself.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

You cannot call him a murderer or even pro-murder. He’s selfish, shitty, immoral.

A good analogy would be an investor in opioid manufacturers, or cigarette makers. They aren’t pushers. But they aren’t acting in a decent manner, either.

And it gets more complicated with politics. A number of truly sincere people place other issues, like abortion or trade policy (bringing jobs back) above racism and sexism.* So to them, voting for Trump is not only morally preferable, but morally required.
___
*ETA: These people are deeply misguided, but if you’ve met pro-lifers or bring urn jobs back folks, you know, they’re earnest and believe their causes are most important.

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

Are there any circumstances in which you are comfortable calling a white person a "racist" where he or she has not openly advocated for white supremacy or self-identified as a racist?

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

To be clear, I don't think you're succeeding in making the points you think you're making. I am just trying to distill exactly how you think about this shit.

As far as I'm concerned, if you continue to support someone like Trump you have decided that you don't give a fuck about racism at best. Your values system allows you to make a judgment that if you get what you want, you're okay enough with that such that you understand your support enables outright racism. Every decision has repercussions. You don't get to vote for a racist piece of shit and discount his racism when he starts doing racist shit. You own that. But, hey, at least you got what you wanted.

TM

Re: We are all Slave now.
 

I’m trying to find the window during which you think there was a GOP that wasn’t in favor of racist policies. Are you talking before the Civil Right’s Act? Seems unlikely look at that era and think ”not racist.” Was it after that as all of the old southern, racist Dems migrated over? Was it Nixon? Couldn’t be Reagan and the welfare queen myth or HW and the Willie Horton ads.

I’ll grant you 1) there was a period in this century where it became politically toxic to be viewed as racist, leading to conservatives who denied that their despire to shrink government wasn’t motivated by the wrong people getting benefits, and 2) some members of the pundit and political classes sincerely believe it of themselves, most like because they’ve never really examined their own biases or bothered to listen when people talk about systemic racism being a broader thing than overt animus (that last bit should sound familiar to you).

Regardless, that’s not what’s going on among the mass of voters, who hear, understand and like the dogwhistles.