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-   -   Welcome back E/O, leagl and Fringey: no one say the name "Penske" 3 times in a row (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=845)

sebastian_dangerfield 10-08-2009 04:03 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 402952)
Honestly, I do not know if a pre-existing belief in effecicacy is required for a placebo effect.
Only for a placicebo effect.

Pretty Little Flower 10-08-2009 04:24 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 402957)
In that case, I return to asking you to define "placebo." Because if something is effective, when you have serious doubts that it will be, and it has been effective on many people for a very long time, that seems to me to be the opposite of "placebo," at least in the way you were using it.


And since the definition, per dictionary.com, is "a substance having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine," then yeah -- I'm going with the idea that it's "fooling yourself." I'm not sure what you intended the word to mean.
Well, you seem to be drifting towards an argument that something being effective means it is not a placebo. I just glanced at those studies I found, but I think that the whole point was to put needles in the wrong places to see if that had any effect on the efficacy of the treatment, and those studies suggested that it did not. So, assuming that the acupuncture is supposedly effective because of the correct placement of needles, wouldn't that be an example of a placebo effect and a good working definition? The people with needles in the right place and the people with needles in the wrong place got the same results. Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.

Adder 10-08-2009 04:27 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 402957)
And since the definition, per dictionary.com, is "a substance having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine," then yeah -- I'm going with the idea that it's "fooling yourself." I'm not sure what you intended the word to mean.
I think "fooling yourself" implies some negativity that is inappropriate to associate with placebo effect. I don't see anything wrong with "fool yourself" into not having pain, for example.

Hank Chinaski 10-08-2009 04:29 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 402962)
Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.
doesn't this mean it isn't a placebo effect, but instead convential acupuncture wisdom is wrong about where to put the needles?

think about it.

Pretty Little Flower 10-08-2009 04:32 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 402965)
doesn't this mean it isn't a placebo effect, but instead convential acupuncture wisdom is wrong about where to put the needles?

think about it.
I am not going to think about it because I feel certain that doing so will make me dumber.

bold_n_brazen 10-08-2009 04:35 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 402956)
unless this is an orgasm or a damn fine hallucinogenic experience, no way. Xanax is divine.
2.

PresentTense Pirate Penske 10-08-2009 05:04 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 402931)
are we only counting actual paras or do pseudo-paras cum secretaries count too?
I ran out of fingers......npi :o;);)

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-08-2009 05:07 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresentTense Pirate Penske (Post 402971)
I ran out of fingers......npi :o;);)
Indeed:

http://www.partycheap.com/v/vspfiles...NCOHOOK-2T.jpg

You could use the other hand instead.

PresentTense Pirate Penske 10-08-2009 05:11 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 402972)
Indeed:

http://www.partycheap.com/v/vspfiles...NCOHOOK-2T.jpg

You could use the other hand instead.
I was using it to grope my paralegal.

evenodds 10-08-2009 05:22 PM
Re: Paralegal/Subordinate Sex
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 402955)
Yes, kind of figured you for the submissive.
I know, I am such a cliché.

Unchecked, I tend to ride roughshod, so I like a man with a firm grip on the reins.

Sidd Finch 10-08-2009 05:38 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 402962)
Well, you seem to be drifting towards an argument that something being effective means it is not a placebo.

A placebo may be effective, but is unlikely to be consistently effective


Quote:
I just glanced at those studies I found, but I think that the whole point was to put needles in the wrong places to see if that had any effect on the efficacy of the treatment, and those studies suggested that it did not. So, assuming that the acupuncture is supposedly effective because of the correct placement of needles, wouldn't that be an example of a placebo effect and a good working definition? The people with needles in the right place and the people with needles in the wrong place got the same results. Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.

Those studies would indicate placebo -- no pharmacological effect, but a benefit because people think they are doing something helpful.

Looking to studies is a little different than going on gut feel. I'm don't have any response to the studies because no one is willing to pay me to read them, or research studies that may have different findings.

Replaced_Texan 10-08-2009 06:03 PM
Re: Welcome back E/O, leagl and Fringey: no one say the name "Penske" 3 times in a ro
 
I thought of Sebby when I was listening to this story on the 50th anniversary of Naked Lunch.

Atticus Grinch 10-08-2009 06:28 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 402977)
Those studies would indicate placebo -- no pharmacological effect, but a benefit because people think they are doing something helpful.

Looking to studies is a little different than going on gut feel. I'm don't have any response to the studies because no one is willing to pay me to read them, or research studies that may have different findings.
Deplorable mania, when something happens, to inquire what.
-- Samuel Beckett

Pretty Little Flower 10-08-2009 06:30 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 402981)
Deplorable mania, when something happens, to inquire what.
-- Samuel Beckett
I had a similar conversation offline with another poster here just this afternoon. (confidential to Hank: Hi!)

PresentTense Pirate Penske 10-08-2009 06:32 PM
Re: Chinese Alternative Medicine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 402982)
I had a similar conversation offline with another poster here just this afternoon. (confidential to Hank: Hi!)
transcript please?


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