Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

I think you need to have a long talk with her and just tell the truth without beating around the bush - you tried, you thought you could make things better, but now you've made your decision. Tell her as soon as possible - don't waffle. You've been thinking about this for a long time and things haven't improved. Don't go to dinner shince she thinks it is a celebration. Find a way to talk about it at home this week or somewhere neutral. If you had any hope that things might improve, I don't think you were dishonest. She is probably going to be angry with you no matter what you say or how you say it. And the kids would feel betrayed even if they were at home - that's how these things work, unfortunately.

I personally don't put much stock in therapists, but perhaps yours has some suggestions that will be helpful. I do suggest you retain an attorney as soon as possible who will have more practical advice for financial issues, etc. It would be preferable for you to meet with a family law attorney before you talk to her, if that is possible.

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

Excellent advice, RT. Also realize that not everyone will be supportive. You really find out who you can count on during messy times. There are a lot of people out there who have their own issues and problems and for whatever reason cannot accept when someone actually takes action to get out of a marriage. If you have any friends who have been through this sort of thing, that might be a good place to start. A good friend can make a huge difference to a person going through a big break-up.

Again, good luck!

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

This is excellent advice. I also agree with the other posters who suggested working late tonight and trying to schedule a therapy appointment tomorrow.

If you do decide on separation, you'll have to distinguish your feelings toward your wife from your feelings towards your kids. You won't be able to see them all the time, and if the only time you DO see them is when she's around, there might be a "halo" effect from missing them that clouds your perception towards her. You need to spend time by yourself, and time with just the kids, AND one-on-one time with your wife in order to sort all of this out. If you can achieve a stable psychological environment living apart, with both of you still being able to see the kids frequently, then you might be better able to figure out what it is you really want, and how you can get there from here.

Until you do get it sorted out, I'd limit the amount of time you spend together as a full family...no matter how much the little ones pressure you to do "family" things. If there hasn't been a lot of screaming/yelling/cruelty/serious unpleasantness that they can see/feel, they may try hard to convince you to stay with mommy. And if the oldest is under ten, the kids are probably scared more than anything else - they just want it to be ok. But
don't fool yourself into thinking they don't know what's going on. Adults don't give children near enough credit in that regard. Be straight up with them, particularly the two oldest (in an age-appropriate way, obviously).

Good luck. I hope everything works out for the best, whatever that may be.

CDF

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

Like RT said, I'm not a family lawyer or a therapist and remember you are getting this advice on a chatboard.

As you have noted in your subject line, this has been going on for at least 2 years. Don't see her until you can see the couples' therapist. If possible, see your therapist again before that (probably not possible) and have him go over the part about how you are sure. Maybe prep the couple's therapist ahead of time by saying you want to tell your wife during the session that you want a divorce.

Your relationship sounds, frankly, hellish and that has got to be hurting your kids as much or more than a divorce would, assuming you can retain some kind of relationship with them post-divorce. Eventually they will realize that you are in many ways making it possible for their mom to be a complete wackjob. You can't be their savior in any event and having their main conception of what a relationship is coming from your relationship with your wife has got to be seriously fucking with their heads.

You have been wanting to leave her for, like, forever, which makes me think you are sure that you would be better off apart, but that you kind of like being needed by her -- or fear being abandoned by her if (I really mean when) you leave. Meaning, you would like to have some kind of more distant relationship with her, b/c you feel a responsibility and/or b/c of the kids, but you are worried that if you leave her she will cut herself off entirely.

I know your primary concern is for your kids. The constant uncertainty has got to be hard on them and really, seeing the two of you in a really bad relationship is bad bad bad.

I would go with the separation idea but I think you have already tried that and either she is unable to sustain or it didn't help. This is way too complex for typing!

Good luck.

Weekend stuff -- the Number
 

would faking an orgasm count as having sex?

Weekend stuff -- the Number
 

No. It counts as a workout, but not as sex.

Weekend stuff -- the Number
 

Good thing. I was about to think I hadn't had sex in 8 years, and damn, in that case, I really need to get laid.

And if you think a handjob can't be sex (at least when performed on a woman) under any circumstances, you aren't thinking very hard.

In my past life:

I do not know how you feel about it, but you were male in your last earthly incarnation.
You were born somewhere around the territory of modern Turkey approximately in 1350.
Your profession was librarian, priest, keeper of tribal relics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your brief psychological profile in that past life:
You always liked to travel, to investigate, could have been detective or spy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lesson, that your last past life brought to present:
Your lesson -- development and expansion of your mental consciousness. Find good teacher, spend a part of your time and energy on his wisdom.


And finally Deal Toy I have no advice to offer, but I'm sorry you are going through this.

Weekend stuff -- the Number
 

You really shouldn't encourage bi-berry like this. . .

Weekend stuff -- the Number
 

Heh. I was more making fun of Sd. Good point though.


Hey bi-berry, note the sarcasm alert

Sock it up your Arse
 

debtslave is a girl? that is soooo fucking cool! I made a girl laugh and then she complimented me!!!! I'm soooo fucking stoked. I'm going to post twice as much now. Yeah!!!!!!!!!

oh, thanks for telling me. you've made my day. since you've done that I will forgive you for being so mean earlier. go now, and sin no more.

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

Oh, fuck you.

You got all our advice last time. Now, you've spent a year telling her you want a divorce, but aren't sure?!?

No fucking wonder she wants you to shit or get off the pot. Nobody, guilty or not, can live through that. You spent all that time extracting from her the price for your hurt, and now you wonder why she's no longer trying? Big mystery.

You can't collect on a debt long past when it's paid. You tried, and now you're owed nothing, and she's tired of it.

Confidential
 

Confidential to paigow... if you think your number could be either 15 or 50, it's damn near 70. Just ask Chris Rock.

Confidential to str8... I concur with your choice of Neko for your laminated list. Midway through her set with the New Pornographers at Bimbo's, Ms. Case ascended to laminated status for me as she began to wiggle her hips while singing.

On a related topic, if Ed Norton no longer wants Salma Hayek, this still means I have no shot with her, right? That's what I thought.

The problem with the whole laminated list is that it presupposes a correlation between physical beauty and sexual prowess. Take, for example, a name that has been bandied about on several laminated lists here: the (overrated) Jennfier Garner. She has high cheekbones and a tight body. But can we assume that a Texas-born woman, just entering her thirties and just exiting what was formerly a storybook marriage, will be good in the sack? OK, perhaps she was a bad example.

What I mean to say is that I'm sure there are many people who are sexually desirable but who aren't sexually skilled. This conundrum still doesn't explain DebtSlave's list, but it might explain why many men would set aside the squick factor and laminate pornstars (not that the pornstars haven't been laminated before).

I shouldn't read/post after late nights, I misread the banter between leagl and bi-berry and thought "watering my fern" was actually "watering my fem." These are, I think, entirely different activities.

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

Obviously you need a divorce. This fact was evidenced from your long ago tendency to email and hit on all the chicks (I know of several), which is not appropriate married man behavior (sorry Wonk). She is gonna go psycho and get all vengeful and she will get herself pregnant whether you like it or not. This wil be worse for your kids.

TdfF Update (Spoiler Free for today's stage)
 

Yesterday's stage into Gap was the best and worst stage I have ever seen.

I am saddened by Beloki's accident and I hope that he will be able to recover from his injuries in time for the Vuelta or the Worlds. He had made the race incredibly exciting and he was on his best form.

Clearly, this is the most competitive Tour we've seen since Lance began winning in '99. Every stage is in doubt and the attacks have come hard and fast.

Here is a link to yesterday's stage, along with the incredibly dramatic photo of Armstrong racing through a field:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/14/sp...D-TOUR.html?hp

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

So quick with the responses....

How many of the advice givers here are actually married???

Marriage and the kids are tough things to dispense with. Not the same as a three-week fling.

privacy keeps going bye bye
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/13/bu...116749bb122894

"Corporate executives are becoming increasingly aggressive about spying on their employees, and with good reason: now, in addition to job shirkers and office-supply thieves, they have to worry about being held accountable for the misconduct of their subordinates."

But on a positive note http://news.com.com/2100-1019-1023934.html?tag=nl (Story about walmart doing away with its wireless inventory control system.)

TdfF Update (Spoiler Free for today's stage)
 

In other cycling news, Pantani, gone from cycling since his team drug bust a few years back, has been spotted back in the saddle. No word on whether it was serious training or just pulling himself out of his depression.

Beloki's accident was gasp-inducing to watch. Vinokourov has been busting his ass all season for Kivilev's sake since Kivilev was killed this spring and I am so delighted he won the stage for them both.

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

No shit. Lets see. Been thinking about escape since 2001, hits on cyberchicks, has a wife who is switching her meds around and is threatending pregnancy all the while saying "divorce me or dont already" (she doesnt sound real stable). this is a nobody is happy situation. My only question is why are they still fucking? Talk about your mixed messages. THis marriage sounds like it will end (if my husband has been to internet chat board over a two or three year period asking whether to divorce me and was aslo putting the moves on paigows and sunny bunnys, I would not be too happy).

Haysuess Chreest

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

I think that most every husband/wife will have episodes where they fling with other folks - the salient factor there seems to be that the has apparently never acted upon his daliances.

My wife was also on medication, but she completely stopped when she felt that the medication was doing more harm than good. She has not looked back.

As to women and children, its hard to argue that the wife is thinking about kids as a trap. There are plenty of mothers out there who love children and get the I-want-a-baby buzz at the most strange of times. Such was the case with my wife. We went to the Caribbean and were having the time of our lives. Never thought about kids. In fact, our eyes would roll whenever we saw parents walking down the aisle of an airplane with their rugrats in tow. Guess what? Three months later, my wife was walking up and down the hallway of the house muttering "baby, baby." I'd be working on the computer in the home office when I'd be tapped on the shoulder. I turn around and see my starry-eyed wife saying "Baby?"

"Talk about your mixed messages" is correct. So, don't immediately kill the issue; go see a therapist.

What you don't know Mr. E, but those of us who have been around do, is that this has been going on a long while and there is a lot more to it.

You are assuming immediacy but this thing has been going on for what 2 or 3 years now I think. If you go back to the old board you'll find different answers the first time around from a lot of people. But that knowledge coupled with the post of yesterday is what has people telling him to pack it in already.

So in this particular case, suggesting he just go on back to therapy and try to stick it out really isn't terribly good advice, imho. I believe therapy can do a lot of good, but there does come a time when you simply have to say enough is enough. Personally, I think trying for two years is enough.

Confidential
 

Yes. That's a good assumption. You're just going to have to take my word for it.

I'm fully aware of the duration - as noted in the subject line of the original post. However, given that he's STILL posting messages on this issue two years later leads me to believe that there is still significant ambivilence in the poster - especially with respect to the kiddies.

Duh. THe kiddies are the whole reason he may stay in which is bullshit if they pick up bad vibes betweenthe parents. Better to get divorced early before they are tempertamental teens. And before the crazy wife gets herself knocked up for the fourth time (your little 'baby baby" story reminded me of Tourist Trap, a classic horror flick). If she is asking him to say Yay or Nay on a divorce, NOW is not the time to go off the pills, right?

and in other more important dilemmas, Queer Eye for the Straight GUy is on at the same time as What Not To Wear. Two brilliantly catty funny shows, on at the same time. The only two I watch. I may have to get that fucking tivo after all, even if it means I am admitting that I watch so much tv that I have to pay another six hundred for it and have another complicated electronic device in the house. What does it say about me that I am willing to consider paying even more dinero to watch the lives of others. Just sad.

I haven't noticed that kiddies of single parents doing significantly better than married and sometimes unhappy parents. The issue of the fights over custody also do numbers.

Oh well, an all around tough situation.

TdfF Update (Spoiler Free for today's stage)
 

I would think Pantani is prepping for the Vuelta. Il Pirata raced in this year's giro (and last year's). While he sucked last year, he rode beautifully in the mountains and his team put tremendous pressure on Cipo's Domina team on the early flat stages.

Vino is certainly on the best form of his life and he is a serious threat. Does anyone know how well he time trials?

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

I am divorced and I have been through the divorces of several close friends. Most without children though. I agree that kids add a whole other dimension (heck, I am a child of divorce) but I also agree that staying together "for the kids" probably is not doing them any favors if the living situation in the house is miserable anyways.

All divorces tend to contain similar elements and similar feelings. Many times the party seeking the divorce is treated badly by people that they try to confide in/rely upon. It is never an easy process.

If he's been telling her, for a year or more, that "he's not sure but he thinks he wants a divorce", it's no wonder she's on meds. What a way to punish someone, and to guarantee that the other person just gradually withdraws. I see the "let's have another kid" thing as a "ok, make up your mind NOW" push. And, he should.

deluge anal
 

He's not ambivalent. He knows what he wants. He just wants a bunch of people to tell him he's right. He's already made up his mind. Bilmore is right. Talking about divorce for years is unfair. She probably thinks he's having a mini mid-life crisis and will be grounded again once it's over. She's moving on, assuming that he doesn't really want to pull the trigger. He makes her sound nuts (asking for another kid when it seems like their life is in chaos), but I think what's going on is that he's pretending that their life isn't in as much chaos as he thinks it is in his head and he's making her believe he still wants to be with her.

TM

Tivo ho
 

You're like Deal Toy with the fucking Tivo already. Shut up and buy one. You're not fooling anyone, including yourself, into thinking that you don't watch 100 hours of tv, so stop yapping and whip out the plastic. You've been talking about it as long as Deal Toy has been talking about divorce.

TM

Continuation of my saga from a long time ago (spring 2001)
 

DT:

Stop getting therapy and stop bouncing ideas off an on-line chat board. Your therapist already told you what you need to do and an online chat board is not the appropriate forum for analyzing life decisions as important as yours.

Go home, sit down with a legal pad for many hours and plot out all the pros and cons of leaving your marriage. Look at both lists and try to determine whether staying or leaving is the clear winner. And be honest with yourself when making the list - don't pile up pros to counter cons and create a false dead heat between the columns to justify further hand-wringing and agonal analysis.

You make this decision mainly alone, like nearly all really life-altering decisions, and you should do so logically, not based on swaying emotions or the errant suggestions of people who's biases you don't even know.

S(now kill this thread)D

TdfF Update (Spoiler Free for today's stage)
 

I don't know what the fuck all those idiots are thinking running around in front of a bunch of pissed-off bulls. They ought to be relaxing over a good dinner with a map plotting viewing spots for the Vuelta.

Viva Espana! (can't figure out how to make the right 'n' or the little upside-down exclamation point)

Speaking of bad marriages....
 

So, I was at a mediation yesterday, and while the mediator was telling opposing counsel that there was no way her client's neck injury was worth $1 million, I flipped thru the latest "People" magazine.*

My comments on the JFK Jr./Carolyn saga:

(1) I had no idear that the book was written by a real journalist. Or someone who used to be a real journalist. How does one go from the NYT to this?

(2) Did slave nail Carolyn at some point? The allegations make it look like they may have met at Moomba's sometime in the late 1990s.

(3) The Cindy Crawford picture on the cover of the first issue of "George" still makes me smile.

*OK, that's a lie -- the damn thing caught my eye at MegaBooks, and I hid my shame at buying it by hiding it between an "Economist" and a "Utne Reader."

Tivo ho
 

Yes, buy the goddamn TIVO and shut up about it. Its fucking $299.00. It ain't going to break you. And trust me - you'll fucking love it. It is the greatest invention I've ever had the pleasure of owning... next to Basil Hayden's.

Tivo ho
 

I just totally chaied. LOL!

I guess its like the $150 jeans that make my ass look so bootylicious, a chocolate chip cookie binge when I am PMSing , DealToy's first divorce and cigarettes after not smoking. I know ts inevitable, so it might as well just be done so life can move on.

TdfF Update (Spoiler Free for today's stage)
 

Looks like he finished 3d in the TdSuisse TT and 5th in the Paris-Nice TT (or maybe I have those reversed). Anyway, based on those results he's good but not about to blow away the entire field.

If I recall correctly, it was an abusive relationship, and I know those can sometimes take longer to leave.

Tivo ho
 

Excuse me, but the lifetime subscription makes it around six hundred and I am saving up to have my boobs inflated and/or put my kids through college. My friends just bought a gogeous house in paradise and I am like, totally inspired by this. I may even get rid of Showtime since Queer as folk now sucks.

Tivo ho
 

You might as well anyway, it's done for the season.

Not to advocate theft or anything but just download the stupid show from Kazaa, because no way in hell is it worth paying whatever they charge for showtime every month.

Ok, so I'm advocating theft. Whatever.

Confidential
 

Dunno about the exiting a storybook marriage part, but you can make the assumption about a woman who meets the rest of that criteria. ;-)

Tivo ho
 

PP:

Don't get the lifetime subscription - buy it per month for $15.99. The way I figure, the lifetime deal isn't worth it because by the time you've used up the dough you spend for it, there will be a new technology which will work better than TIVO so you'll want to throw out the TIVO anyway.

I am totally depending on relatives dying to put kids through college. That or the kids will have to get scholarships. I can't fathom wasting the money on schools that my folks wasted on me.

As to the home, well... I wouldn't buy right now. This market is so inflated you'll never get your $$$ back out of the home. Of course, some realtor will tell you there's no better time than now because of rates, but that whole pitch is illusory, unless you believe prices don't rise inversely to wipe out any gain you get from plummeting rates. There will be a short window in a few months when the housing market tanks but rates haven't really risen meteorically yet during which time you'll be able to steal a house. I'd start looking now and pray for a housing market crash.

S(Waiting for the crash so I can steal some property)D