Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

You choose to talk about the press instead of Trump. Sometimes I choose to talk about you instead of the press.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You missed mine.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

This is interesting:

TPM

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

There was a legitimate investigation run by (Republican) James Comey, (Republican) Robert Mueller and (Republican) Rod Rosenstein. It revealed a lot of criminal conduct by people other than the President. Trump obstructed that investigation.

Any investigation of a President is going to be "political" because people do not want their government to be corrupt or do illegal things. You seem to think that a President who calls an investigation "political" is justified in breaking the law to obstruct it. That's loony tunes. Do you really think that? If not, why not?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Exonerated is the wrong word. I don’t know why that and collusion are even used. On conspiracy, Trump is found not to have engaged in a criminal conspiracy. On obstruction, Trump has been found to have engaged in acts which could support claims of obstruction but at this time do not warrant or merit prosecution under reasonable prosecutorial discretion.

That’s inartful, but the only way to phrase Mueller’s findings and Barr’s application of them.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

When your opponents use a valid investigation as a political sword, you get leeway in terms of allowable responsive actions. This lesson may serve to deter the parties from politicizing investigations in the future. Call it the Barr Doctrine: He who makes an investigation a political sword gifts the target enhanced powers to rebut and the benefit of the doubt in re all allegations of obstruction.

As an aside, apart from Trump, I think obstruction is an oft abused charge. The deck is already stacked brutally enough in the govt’s favor. A defendant must also worry he’s going too far in trying to save his ass?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

The fed crim code can be used to indict almost anyone if a prosecutor really wants to nail the person. It’s a truly problematic mess that confers far too much power to law enforcement.

So whether Trump can be indicted is a mindless question. Yes. You can technically charge him based on any one of the 11 instances Mueller cited. But can you convict? And should you charge a dumb person for trying to squirm out of an investigation, even if he’s the President? Maybe. Or maybe not.

I guarantee if we decided to apply the crim code in its entirety to the last five presidents, we could find some technical charge on which to indict. The crim code is in desperate need of a diet. It’s about 50-66% larger than it ought to be.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

What has to be true for a President whose Administration is being investigation to not "get leeway" in your view to break the law?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

If the opposing party is not talking up the investigation for benefit, hyperbolizing its likely outcome, and referencing it constantly to denigrate him politically, a President has no need for leeway to protect himself.

Once an investigation is initiated, a gag order should be imposed on all members of the House and Senate and their staff regarding the investigation. And they may not conduct concurrent investigations of the same issues. They must all shut up, entirely, until the investigation is concluded.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Why does that make sense? I can see worrying about an investigation where someone with political power uses that power to influence an investigation. But in a case like this one, where Mueller worked for the President, not Congress, why should it matter what the other political party says? Mueller doesn't work for them.

A couple of days ago, you were bending over backwards to explain how Barr, a political appointee of Trump's, could be trusted to be fair as he explained to the public how Mueller had exonerated Trump. That was the AG, for whom Mueller worked. You had no concerns about Barr's politics. But today, you are concerned about political influence that even a single member of Congress in the minority might have by making a public statement.

Either you feel Trump needs more sympathy than he is getting from this board, or you are so worried about prosecutorial power that you are fine when politics discourages prosecution, just because, but don't want to see it go the other way.

It's like it has escaped your notice that DAs in this country are political actors who run on their record to get to office.

Your euphemism "leeway" is another way of saying that you are OK if the President breaks the law, if he is being criticized. You just don't want to acknowledge that.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Right, which is why Barr’s summary really should be disqualifying of him as AG.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

No, the investigation did not find enough evidence to prove conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. It reached that result with no access to the foreign witnesses, no testimony from the president and no cooperation from the most likely actual participant (Manafort) and the one person who we know worked directly with a Russian intelligence asset.

Also, what you said here is no different from “exonerate.”

No, that’s not right either. Can you read? OLC policy precludes prosecution. Given that, and thamks to post-Star special counsel rules that prohibit a referral for impeachment, Mueller did all he could actually do: present the evidence of obstruction.

ETA: I think the correct read is that Mueller would have referred obstruction to the House for impeachment if he was allowed to.

Nope, Barr simply ignored what Mueller actually said about obstruction and substituted his own judgment.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Fixed that for you.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Why? If the report is detailed enough to let you disagree, what difference does it make?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

If an investigation of this unprecedented breadth fails to result in evidence adequate to sustain a charge, it might as well be an exoneration. This isn’t a local DA coming up short.

It’s also quite funny that when I said weeks ago that Manafort may have the goods, Ty told me I was nuts. Now here you are making the same argument I had made.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

This argument is silly. They clearly looked at all people affiliated with the Russian govt and all people affiliated with the Trump campaign. It says so plainly in the report, and it’s frivolous to assert otherwise. Adder and you have made solid arguments on other bases. Drop this one. It undercuts your better points.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

It matters because when a party politicizes an investigation, as the Democrats did here, it puts a President in a heads you lose, tails I win corner. He’s forced to fight the investigation which the other party can then claim is obstruction... All the while that party hyperbolizes about what the investigation will bring forth. It forces what the party sensationalizing the investigation can later label a cover-up, while the underlying investigation comes up with inadequate evidence to even find a criminally chargeable conspiracy.

I said I think Bill Clinton was licensed to lie where he did. I do not believe a political investigation is valid. Bill was above the law where the law was perverted by politicians to wrongly attack him. Trump is more complex. This investigation was valid and was later wrongly used by Democrats as a political device. His leeway, unlike Clinton’s, is limited. Also, to the extent he wrongly used an investigation of Hillary as a sword against her, his suffering the same fate seems equitable. I have a hard time putting him above the law in a limited sense as I did in the case of Bill. But my judgment there is immaterial. I’m just offering what I think resembles Barr’s rationale.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

I mean, as long as you ignore all the evidence, I suppose.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Some questions for Attorney General Barr.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

We're talking about conspiracy. On conspiracy, Mueller stated, unequivocally, he did not have adequate evidence to charge anyone in the Trump campaign or anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign with having engaged in a criminal conspiracy with the Russian govt or anyone afilliated with the Russian govt.

No one is ignoring evidence. Mueller is saying he could not find adequate evidence. Are you suggesting Mueller himself is ignoring evidence? That there is enough to charge a criminal conspiracy and Mueller just ignored it?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

I'm saying that the evidence shows that Trump personally, as well as other members of his campaign, asked for, knew about and accepted help from the Russian government and did nothing to prevent it (any other campaign would have been reporting the Russian contacts to the FBI). That's not exoneration. At most, that's got really lucky they couldn't be charged.

I'm also saying that Mueller did not have access to any Russian witnesses (nor Assange) and the two most likely Trump participants - Stone and Manafort - did not cooperate. It safe to assume they know things that might have aided the prosecution.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

This is the dumbest ongoing conversation possibly ever on this board.

The levels of ridiculous justifications and dismissals Sebby is going through ("The law is too broad, so it doesn't matter that you can prove Trump broke it" or "He's not smart, so why are we treating him like a criminal genius" or "Excuse his criminal behavior because it's just a reaction to a legitimate investigation which yielded numerous convictions of people who were integral to the Administration or the campaign") is so fucking ridiculous that I'm not sure why anyone here (including me) still engages.

What's the point?

TM

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

It is dumb. A number of people here wish to relitigate conspiracy.

Mueller found there was not adequate evidence on conspiracy. Period.

You know what you've got when you can't adduce adequate evidence to sustain a charge? Nothing. You have nothing.

On obstruction, there's something. Politically, Congress can do as it will. And one can argue that criminal charges are warranted. But on conspiracy, unless some smoking gun evidence which Mueller overlooked should arise, which is highly unlikely, The Story is Over.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

I am running for Congress. Russians, acting in concert with Wikileaks, start leaking all sorts of nasty shit about my opponent. I decide to take a political risk and welcome this, even encourage more of it. But I do not directly coordinate with the Russians. I simply receive info from them and use it to my advantage. I also telecast to these Russians that I understand they want me in office over my opponent. To get more info into the public sphere of the sort these Russians are peddling, I even state overtly that I want better relations with them, so they'll keep leaking such info through Wikileaks.

Is this "dancing from afar" a crime?

No. No it's not. And if it's not a crime, you've got nothing but finger wagging. "These people are immoral." Pay for a beer with that. The public doesn't care about this investigation as it relates to political charges. You think it cares at all about someone claiming it proved the Trump campaign is immoral or engaged in dirty tricks? You realize how low our public opinion of politicians is generally, apart from Trump. You also realize Trump is admittedly, openly amoral and immoral (it shifts situationally). Calling him an immoral politician is like pointing out the moon's existence.

Re Stone, Manafort, and Assange, I'll say it again: If you cannot adduce info adequate to charge, you have nothing. Mueller had 22 months. He had thousands of subpoenas, hundreds of interviews, and he couldn't come up with adequate evidence of a crime in re the conspiracy. Now you say it all would have been different if only they'd had cracked Stone, Manafort, and Assange? Please. Mueller came up snake eyes on conspiracy, as I always figured he would. But congrats -- you've got the dumb bastard in jeopardy on obstruction. Run with that angle. It's the only one you have.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Yep.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

You've been so thoroughly stupid on this, I can't tell if you're even aware that you're narrowing the field of wrongdoing so you can declare that the narrow thing didn't happen.

The campaign's handling of Russian election interference is an astounding controversy and a major deal even if there was not criminal conspiracy involved.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Had the Trump campaign directly received any of the hacked materials from the Russians, I'd assume someone would have been charged.

And "crime" is hardly the only consideration here. Anyone with even a shred of sense about how this activity leaves them compromised and subject to blackmail would have been smart enough to run away from the situation.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

I don't think that would be have been enough to establish a conspiracy to hack.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

The investigation was oversold from the start. Many prominent Ds, Never Trumpers, and a load of media outlets created the perception that a criminal conspiracy would be found.

And then it wasn't.

If you don't get that from a messaging perspective, lack of finding of a criminally chargeable conspiracy = effective exoneration on the conspiracy, I can't help you. The Adam Schiffs of this debacle promised a hanging. They never even got past the preliminary hearing.

The controversy you describe has been known forever. Trump danced from afar with the Russians in plain sight. We didn't need this investigation to tell us that. The desire among most of the people who want to see Trump go down was to see this investigation take him out with a finding of a criminal activity. There was a lot of over-promising, and a lot of hope, and a lot of people now feeling let down at the ultimate result.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

The next step is the interesting phase. I thought Barr was speaking loosely when he used "spying." I was wrong. He was actually delivering a precise message. That message explains why Pelosi and Hoyer have been lukewarm on impeachment. If the House impeaches, the leaks of material about improprieties in the 2016 investigation of Trump campaign start.

The bluffing behind the scenes in this shitshow must be amazing.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't have a lot of patience for the Democrats who want to write off impeachment entirely because Republican Senators will never vote for it. Hold hearings. Tell the story. Build the case. Make Republican Senators talk about it, bind the GOP to Trump's worst corruption, and make them pay a political price for defending him. The legal process is the means to the political conversation, not an end in itself.

eta:

I don't know what sources you rely on, but you seriously ought to consider some new ones.

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

Is there anyone alive who doesn't think Trump has terrible judgment?

The armies of pundits and politicians who trafficked in predictions of how Mueller's investigation would find a criminal conspiracy with Russians simply over-promised. Over-promising is dangerous. It's near impossible to walk back 22 months of hyperbole. And trying only makes it worse.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Unless the GOP's got more than a bluff up its sleeve regarding malfeasance in the investigation of the Trump campaign. If Barr's as compromised as you suggest, would you at all doubt his willingness to offer a veiled threat/message in his testimony before Congress?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'll update on Thursday. It sounds a bit too saucy to be true to me as well. I'm going to press about it in person.

Makes sense though, given Barr's unusual comment during his testimony.

But then one wonders, how many laws did the people who uncovered this proof of malfeasance break acquiring that information?

Re: "Psst... Rosenstein is a KGB Plant. Pass it on..."
 

It would help if you removed your head from your ass.

There are two issues here. Whether the President has engaged in criminal conspiracy for which he or anyone else should be charged. You're stuck on this because, for some weird reason, you think that no evidence of criminal conspiracy means no collusion and everyone should pack up their shit and move--despite the fact that the reason why Mueller presumably didn't have enough for a criminal charge was the fact that the President didn't cooperate, his henchman have lied and/or refused to cooperate, and he doesn't have access to the Russians with whom the Administration has been dealing. But that is neither here nor there, because:

The other issue is whether the collusion (dictionary definition) he and his Administration are guilty of (again, not the statutory definition) and the clear obstruction of justice the President has engaged in amount to impeachable offenses (read: high crimes and misdemeanors).

We all know where you stand on 1. So, enough. If you have an opinion on 2 (and I'm sure I know what it is already, but whatever), fine. But shut the fuck up about 1 already.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I agree. Don't shirk your duties because Republicans have completely sold out any ounce of integrity they've ever had.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

What. the. fuck.

Only you and Hannity are wondering this. Holy shit.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It's not a bluff, it's a bullshit message that the base sucks up and even believes. Why do you think any Democrat in Congress would feel threatened? It's totally inane.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It's not even about duty. It's about politics. If you can't take what Trump has done and turn it into a message about why the country needs new leadership, you oughtn't be in politics.

eta: Josh Marshall knows how:

"The simple takeaway from the Mueller Report is the President betrayed his country and spent two years lying and breaking the law to try to hide that fact. He should resign and be tried for his crimes."

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

All of that and also: show that you stand for something and are willing to fight for it.