The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Velma, your argument is easily dismantled.

First, what is the "legitimate gripe" to which you refer? What "legitimate gripe" can anyone have with another person's decision about what to do with his or her body? How does another woman having plastic work create a "legitimate gripe" for anyone else?

Second, if such a gripe could exist, what exactly is it? Flesh it out for me because I can't fathom what on possible gripe one could have with another's personal decision regarding his or her body (and don't hand me some political pretext about plastic work degrading women as a whole - gimme a real honest gripe, if one exists).

Third, my attitude is not gender related. Men who make fun of other men who have attributes they don't usually do so from a position of insecurity. I've done it myself. We all do. We're humans and we have insecurities about certain things.

I'm not being sexist at all. I just exposed a simple truth that for some reason people don't want to admit, and I'm not surprised you've reacted the way you did. People just don't like to admit their insecurities. But they should get over it.

S(yes, GWNC - this is an obvious fact, but one that for some reason people avoid like SARS)D

So if we have hashed and rehashed the legal illegal thing to death, your "move [on]" is to spend 5 paragraphs in this post and another long post to come at the same issue from the tax angle? Sheesh. You are such a lawyer.

I have used the apple service -- it's really terrific. Recently, I searched for two obscure covers. I found one and paid $.99 for the download. The other, I filled out a form with our request and within a couple of weeks, they had it up as well.

And One Last Shocking News Item
 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jack Manfred
Speaking of Phoebe Cates, did she ever look better than she did in Fast Times? This could be something like a poll. Name a actor and the movie where you think that actor looked their best.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tracy Lourds-Between the Cheeks
Judy Garland-Meet Me in St. Louis
Barbara Streisand-Funny Girl
Alicia Silverstone-Clueless
Anna Paquin-the Piano

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

OK, I looked. No silicon boobies, no facial reconstruction (even if it IS needed), no colored hair, no fake teeth, no piercings or rings or tattoos, no plates in my lips, and, honestly, no insecurities.

Well, okay, some, but not related to my dislike of polysynthetic mating adornments.

I see you have been using your thighmaster
 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Well, I guess it started during my first year of the second grade, when I was eating lunch and caught my reflection in a spoon, and I thought to myself, 'Hey, Derek, you're ridiculously good looking! And I thought maybe I could do that for a career.

Typical of the republican ethic of do as I say not as do moralism (see Bill Bennett).

I'm already resigned to the fact if I ever have kids that they will be CD burning experimental drug using peace movement slackers, but then again my 'rents were 60s style hippies so the apples don't fall far from the tree.

Calling me a lawyer isn't insulting me. I like being a lawyer :P

I can waste my paragraphs however I want thank you very much. It is better than going on and on about SDs gender issues as some are doing. And yo, SD...major issues dude.

And yes, I like the apple service.

Sorry that should be SD not sidd. so I edited it.

Let's hash and rehash this one now
 

Here's the problem: blank CDs are not just for music, and, for music, they are no longer the medium of choice for recording. So I mainly purchase blank CDs for sharing photos and home movies (since I don't download songs) and, to a lesser extent, for data storage. You buy yourself an MP3 player with built in hard drive so you can download 1000 songs, infringing copyrights like crazy. Now you want me, noble and upright citizen that I am, to subsidize your illegal habits.

Can I just buy you some pot instead?

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

You're boring.

Let's hash and rehash this one now
 

Please.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

And that, apparently, is how I like women, too.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

SD, I saw no "class card" in what she wrote and it didnt occur to me as a possibilty until I saw your post and even then its only a possibility bc that is how you interpreted it. So, let it go.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Glad you're at peace with it. But shouldn't "women" be singular? I mean, remember, you're boring.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

You know, if you just get some fake TITS, people might start respecting you around here...

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

And married.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Sure, but married women are almost as fun as the singular ones.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Paigs:

She's a big girl. Let her answer my question, if she can.

My question goes to the whole meat of the debate - What exactly is the "legitimate gripe"? My point all along has been that there is no such legitimate gripe. Lets see what tortured construction she can vomit up to support her position.

S(After I get my answer, I'll drop it)D

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Yawn. Must we go over Body Image 101 here? We all have insecurities. I'm certainly not perfect, though I'm pretty happy with how I am. But it is disturbing that otherwise healthy people will accept the major health risks of anaesthesia and the strong likelihood of complications or future surgery on otherwise healthy organs in order to look a certain way. I'm not talking post-mastectomy reconstruction--I'm talking about "my B boobs are wholly inadequate." Men are catching up and becoming similarly obsessed, but it's still mostly women statistically. To say it's purely individual and not at least related to women still being valued more as t&a than whole human beings in the society as a whole is fucking ignorant. Saying so isn't a sign of "jealousy" as you put it--it's a legitimate critique of a social phenomenon. And for you to diminish it as such is a one of the oldest patronizing and sexist insults out there.

Fuck. It's like listening to Mike Brady complain that some of those "women's libbers" are really "out there."

And while we're at it--I'm sure Michael Jackson's obsessive skin-bleaching has nothing to do with the absurd perception that white people generally have life a little easier.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

OK, I suspect I'm actually more boring than you. This makes it sound like you're not even doing boring right. What a bore.

There's always room for...
 

Just to be sure, it's clear that that is a doctored photo, isn't it? Someone else's ass superimposed over and making fun of J-Lo's already oversized rumpus.

TM

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Translation: There is no legitimate gripe. Just a self-righteous moral judgment.

S(are you pro-life as well?)D

There's always room for...
 

Yup. The sight inspires apprehension nonetheless.

There's always room for...
 

OK, this is spooky. Can someone tell me whether there was some talk show on where J-Lo was denying that picture was actually her butt? It seemed really, really funny as I was watching it**, but thinking about it now, I think I actually might have only dreamed it.


**Surely, I am not the only one to have experienced the phenomenon of dreaming of something side-splittingly funny only to find that, upon awakening, it really wasn't funny at all, and in fact, made no sense.

BB4 anyone/Boy meets Boy/ Queer I
 

I think I sufficiently de-spoilerized your post... Agreed on all counts. I think Franklin is straight, but it is interesting that they don't tell us. The only one who tilited my gaydar for sure was Wes, who was cute enough (in a gay sorta way) for me to wish he was here in Dallas so I could set one of my gay friends up with him...

Carson is hilarious. He always comes up with the best one-liners! Maybe a future in comedy? His own dressing styles sure doesn't hit the mark, tho he's done a good job on the duds for the str8 guys so far (other than making the cutie last night try on that pink tuxedo coat).

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

I was right with you up to this point.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

You're being a little cavalier here. If her gripe about body-mod is based on a distaste for the Barbie model of value that women are (to a great extent) forced to serve in this world, it goes a bit beyond a self-righteous moral judgment. On your rationale, what belief ISN'T a self-righteous moral judgment?

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

I am going to hate myself for getting involved but.....

Wasn't there a study done once that found that women actually do all that we do (how we dress, makeup, cosmetic surgery, etc) for other women and not for men? I don't mean in a lesbian way (NTTAWWT) but rather in a "I want to impress other women or have them envy me" way. It seems to me, that we carry some of the blame for being valued as T&A because we ourselves value T&A so much. For every time (and there have been very few) that I have heard a grown mature man (mature ones, not the 15 to 23 frat boy set) make a derogatory comment about a woman's body/clothing/face/whatever I have heard "grown and mature" women make a 1,000 such comments about other women. Why is that? Do we really blame this on society -- a society in which we are 51% of the population I might add -- or is it just us? I can't help but think that we women are worse to and more judgmental of one another than a man could be. Why? Does it all fall back on competition for men (who, as I pointed out, don't seem to care as much as we do) or are we just mean little shits by nature? :confused:

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

I think you are missing the point. I'm not sure that I can correctly make PJ's point, but if you are asking, "is there a gripe other than one that stems from the griper's self-image issues?" then I think the answer is yes.

I don't really care if people get plastic surgery or not. I am glad that the option is available to me if I want it and I have had cosmetic surgery already (although I don't think I'll ever get my boobs done).

I think, however, that a legitimate gripe about plastic surgery is that there are health risks that have been documented in studies associated with it and, to some, it is a sad commentary on society that we risk our health (and others, if you believe some of the studies that discuss breast milk and infants) for the sake of our outward appearance.

Now you can go ahead and blast those health studies to bits. And that's fine, but it does not mean that there is no gripe.

For example, I think women should be able to take an occasional drink during pregnancy. I think the health risks of an occasional drink are pretty much nil, even though people quote studies at me proving otherwise. I can go ahead and criticize those studies until the cows come home. That does not mean that opponents of drinking during pregnancy don't have a "legitimate gripe". It just means I disagree with them.

"Legitimate" to me means grounded in generally acceptable research. You can always criticize it, but it doesn't mean the gripe is founded on pure speculation or emotion, or someone's conception of morality.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Of course not, you idiot. You think I want the government forcing me to breed? I don't say people don't have the right to do what they want--just that it's legit to question why. Life's a moral judgment SD--you, for example, had no problem judging those of us who find it problematic as jealous hags.

P(perfectly happy as a classic hourglass BTW, and hardly in need of implants)J

There's always room for...
 

Okay, *that* is flab. That is not "strong glutes." She is a perfect example of a car date.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Excellent post. I have no idea why. Maybe we do internalize what we claim is unfair, then spit it out at each other in the most vicious way. It's funny, but I hardly ever hear women criticize each other on career/school/other indicators of status--just like you say, on how they look. Guys--what's your primary fodder for guy-on-guy insults?

Gigli
 

Gigli Focus Groups Demand New Ending in Which Both Affleck and Lopez Die

Onion: http://www.theonion.com/onion3929/gi...us_groups.html

Excerpt: "According to the exit cards, other popular methods of achieving Lopez and Affleck's on-screen demise included car bombs, multiple stab wounds, acid baths, rabid wolf attacks, lightning strikes, and, in one case, a "hammer party."

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

What exactly is wrong with being judgmental or having moral viewpoints? You might disagree with them, but that in turn would be your own judgment. Is it all of a sudden wrong to believe that certain things are wrong just because they are wrong? I.e. murder, adultery, what have you?

Personally, I just think risking your life for surgery is foolish just so you can have bigger breasts or get rid of your love handles. I think it is an inappropriate level of risk, and yes, that is a judgment. It isn't one that stems from jealousy or insecurity though. It is one that stems from knowing people can die or have serious complications from these things. If and when the day comes when there is no risk of death or complication, ask me again, I might have a different view. Does that make me judgmental? If so, that's ok with me.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

Same as women - shoes.

Gigli
 

I read the opinion card that was printed in the story and I hope the movie producers didn't see it as constructive criticism. I might be wrong, but it seemed more like these people wanted to see Fucking Moron and J-Lo[ok who I am marrying this week] die -- slow and painful.

edited to add that I hope the person who penned the ways to die suggestions on that card (note that there are "more on other side") was not part of the Atlanta focus group -- :eek:

There's always room for...
 

It wasnt clear to me. BUt I never want to see that gruesome photo again.

Queer I and Why the Music Industry Was Already Won
 

Queer Eye -- tyrannical gay fashionistas remodel some poor straight man in their coke-mirrored image. Echoing the vacuous brain decay of Jack from Will & Grace, this program shows gay men as materialistic vamps, style clowns with cock-centered worldviews who see conversation as an opportunity for Three's Company-level double entendres. When these men open their mouths, distant stars collapse. We expect our television to debase us, empty us, and condescend to us, which this show certainly does, and we all come back for more every week.

If that were not bad enough, Queer Eye is the single most shameless corporate tramp on television. Even the helpful hints, shill for high-end purveyors. Every scene involves a close-up on a store front, a label, or a smartly designed tube of styling gel. Taste, according the this show, is linked to consumer status symbols instead of pleasure. OOOh, were can I get that chocolate? For fuck sake.

So, we love it when our channels of mass communication shove consumerism into our open mouths. Buy this? Sure.

The Real Reason Women Hate Plastic Surgery (Goddamnit, Say What You Really Mean)
 

The tight black t-shirt crowd gets made fun of A LOT, especially when the guy has muscle. Black T Guido is usually hanging out with Fake TITS Tina. Although I don't think it's jealousy or insecurity b/c many of the guys (I know) could get away with wearing the tight T, they just choose not to...

Middle-aged guy driving uber-fancy sports car/H2 gets called "tiny dick" all the time, especially if it's a Porsche. Again, this is coming from friends (some trustafarians) who could afford the car, so I don't see insecurity there...

I make fun of suburban men with families all the time, but that's just b/c that's exactly where Sartre would put me in "No Exit". My own personal version of hell. It's either a big city or a small town for me. No in between. I don't dislike these people, I just don't want to be them. Yet. I quote one of my friends: "I'm going to be married and 30 by next year. Just go ahead and kill me."

BB4 anyone/Boy meets Boy/ Queer I
 

So, where are you on Dan of the open relationship? Gay or straight? He had just about the sexiest come fuck me smile I have ever seen and I have never been attracted to a gay man in my life. This is one component of my gaydar- if the guy is someone I would normally be attracted but just am not for some intangible reason. O will be reallllllly sad if Franklin is gay. When the ones you would normally go for and not have a clue are gay end up being gay, that means things are worse than you thought. Why dont they just call this show No Hope for the Straight Girl?

Gigli
 

Um, you did see this was from the Onion, right?