Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You mean our children?

My son was in the states for fencing today, so I got to go to a crowded Gym and hang out with a couple hundred high schoolers. A veritable "younger crowd".

They're very loud.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I salute you. And kind of hate you.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Because the old codger died inside long ago. The litigation software took over his brain, and now he’s wasted his golden ticket.

Very few are smart enough to walk away when they “ring the bell.”

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

No one really thinks AA harms black people. That’s a bit of BS dressed up as contrarian thinking.

The only laws that may harm protected classes are discrimination claims (age, sex, race, etc.). It can harm one’s chances to be perceived as unfireable.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

Aside from making this about you somehow (and it ain't just you, but it's amazing how quickly the conversation shifts from "wtf did Liam just say" to "What about my opinion?"), I can't get over this paragraph. It looks like it contains:

• Dems are unfair
• I don't get to have an opinion
• Some indecipherable #metoo comment
• Why do black people get to determine everything related to race
• Black people have different opinions on things, which is...unfair to others?
• Trump is consistent

I'm not even going to tackle any of this, because it's all so fucking stupid.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Credible allegations for which he asked for a full investigation. Gillibrand lead the charge to remove him before he was allowed an investigation. And the one allegation based on that photo was not something he deserved to lose his job over. Censure him or punish him in some other way. But there is no denying that there was a rush to judgment. And Gillibrand was grandstanding.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Very few are smart enough to walk away when they “ring the bell.”

After much deliberation, I have determined that I am in a position that my financial future, and that of my family unto my grandchildren's generation, is secure. Having worked at the same outfit for 44 years, I have decided not to make a career of it. The signature cases I have on my docket are in the "pig has moved through most of the python" stage. My successor is more than ready, she has been ready for a decade. Time to step down before the Board taps me on the shoulder, pins a note to my sweater, and leaves me at a dog track. It is time. I'm going out on a very good note.



At age 72 and a low fraction, I will ring the bell on March 29, thus making April Fools Day my first day of retirement. Bueller LLC will open for business the next day.



Mostly, I'll be found at beaches between North Carolina, Bermuda, Aruba, Costa Rica, and, when the narco problem clears up again, Barra Beach in Rio. Buy futures in SPF 90 sunscreen. I'll be using it by the quart as I fish for breakfast at sunrise, reapplying until the cocktail hour at sunset.



I also expect to be busy enough, but not too busy. I will be working for the World Bank and the Financial Services Volunteer Corps once or twice a year to see a few of the more remote emerging economies I have yet to visit. Get ticket, review facts on the ground, write report, repeat.



I wish all of you the same level of happiness in your careers that I've been fortunate enough to have. Peace.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I was referring to a bunch of people offering their opinions here, and we are, mostly, white, so noting that our takes are not so important.

Also, noting that with at least me too, a male actor who "ranked" one violator's acts relative to another was actually in trouble for voicing an opinion.

THEN asking what is the standard? Must one satisfy one is actually okay given all views of the insulted class, or is there some objective average? Like with Frakken- many voices said give him a pass, others said he needs to go- if there are voices to fry the guy and others saying let him stand, do we find a mean?

I don't really care whether Liam ever works again, or if he does. I think the Va gov should go down. I was more interested is seeing people's takes on what should happen.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I really find it very hard to follow what the fuck you're saying.

If you support racist fucking policies and you're a fucking black face-wearing racist, you get bounced. If you actively work towards equity when it comes to diversity issues and you have been found to do some stupid, ignorant, racist shit in your past, should you get bounced which might result in an alleged sexual assaulter, other blackface-wearing jackass, or a Republican who will work against equity taking office? It's obviously a more complicated question. But I understand you'd rather make it a simple, cut-and-dried hypocrisy issue because it's easier to throw out empty platitudes on this board that way.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

stp- basically people with a political stance define what is good from the standpoint of that political stance. I'm not throwing dirt at Dems, I'm just suggesting everyone be honest that whether an official has "value" that might merit saving comes from one's political stance.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

he thinks we ought to try to see things from the racists' point of view

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

This is getting dumber by the fucking minute.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I thought you were being intentionally ridiculous before, but I see now that you are actually just ridiculous.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

Nice. That's right, I'm trying to keep America safe for racists.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

Perhaps the most interest set of discussions I've seen on Northam have been had among professional historians of the south, putting together the bits and pieces of either once-legitimate but long since debunked history and the bits of total fabrication and myth that make up his world view of southern history, especially such chestnuts as referring to early slaves as indentured servants.

It reminds me of touring southern historical sites and being shown a reconstructed slave cabin - the dimensions were right, the dirt floor was right, but there was a fresh coat of paint on the cabin (we know that slaves used various whitewashes usually homemade from local mineral deposits) so it looked neat and tidy and it was all in good repair and made from modern milled timber, and the guide described to us how most slaves were really treated pretty well, fed properly, whipped rarely, and it was better than what they had in Africa.

Yeah, sure bud. "history" you say.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

There is no reason to own this because what you're saying is stupid. Just because someone believes destroying affirmative action (which is remedial in nature, btw) is a good thing doesn't actually make it a good thing. If you're out here talking about how all policy should be colorblind when every institution is decidedly not colorblind, you may believe that (although I think almost everyone who argues that bullshit is full of shit), but you are wrong. So, if you have a racist past and your policies harm people of color, you're damn right, you can fuck off.

Just stop it.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

HE BENEFITED FROM AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! God, I hate that man.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

Fair enough (your dismissal of such people, not the attacks) but what you are saying is that people who do not agree with you on the issue (and again I agree with you on AA) are essentially bad. I do not disagree they are bad, but that is a judgement based upon my belief.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Haven't seen the episode, but I wouldn't call Jessica Williams light-skinned. She's definitely not dark-skinned. But I think she has somewhat European features, which can lead to people thinking of her as lighter-skinned because European features (especially when it comes to one's nose) seem to be overwhelmingly preferable in our society.

That's not racist. She absolutely has beautiful skin.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

What is the standard for anything problematic? Just because there are issues that people view as "not their issue" does not mean that those who are the subject of the harm have to define the standard for you. As I said, black people are not a monolithic block. Neither are women. People within those groups disagree on how best to proceed. Don't use that fact as an excuse to throw up your hands and say, "Mixed messages! I give up!"

I tend to take a practical tack. Is the person doing positive things? Have they learned their lesson? How bad was the behavior at issue? What happens if they're removed? Isn't this what people do for all issues? When it comes to racism, sexism, homophobia, I can understand why it's harder for people to approach it that way because it's something that's very personal and hurtful. But if you're looking for a bright line rule, you're just not going to get it. You have to do the hard work like everyone else.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

No. I disagree. Value when it comes to racial equity can be judged. And if you're pretending (and even if you're not) that destroying AA in a racist world is beneficial, I get to judge you on that.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

How is this different than anything else? Just because you can't measure the effect of both options doesn't put the two things on equal footing.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I don't have a problem reaching my own opinion. I was wondering what others do, and really, what should the disgraced actor/politician do with mixed voices.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

The problem is that people don't yet understand that this stuff is a bit out of their control. They want to just do or say whatever will get them out of jeopardy. And the fact that it may not exist is very frustrating to deal with.

You have to be genuine. And that may not work still. If you shit on people, some will get over it, others won't. But I think that so many white people (when it comes to race issues) and men (when it comes to sexism), etc., then turn to the group that has been harmed and say, "What the fuck am I supposed to do? Give me something that will satisfy all of you and I'll do it." It just doesn't work that way because, as I've said, black people (for example) aren't a block that moves in sync.

TM

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I recall that as well. That was the intellectual underpinning of the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

It's the silliest mix of illogic and sophistry. As though he'd rather not be there, in a position to prove those critics wrong.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

What I'm about to say is only a little about Franken and Gillibrand. There are a lot of people who are not interested in waiting for the results of formal investigations in situations like this one, and on some level I think that results from the intuition that formal processes like investigations can't be trusted to get at the truth of what happened, that there are too many false negatives. It's obviously problematic, because calling on people to resign without an investigation sounds unfair.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hey, that's awesome. Hope your new gig inspires you to more productive and creative levels of posting here.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I can't wait. Going to back out of my driveway without looking. EVERY. TIME.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

It doesn't sound unfair. It is unfair. A story told from one person's perspective is only a piece of what happened. And an accuser's perspective is always biased. (The person's obviously angered enough to have accused another.)

I've sued people and received large recoveries for things I could convincingly present as negligence but which were really more a confluence of random events that led to someone being harmed or fired. My narrative was accepted because juries like to hear stories, and our claims could be packaged into stories. The defense did not have such a great story because telling a jury of common people that a mix of random events led to a circumstance that looked like negligence but wasn't does two things:

1. It robs the audience (the jury) of the ability to use their primordial pattern-finding mind (which works against their instinct); and,
2. If they find its more random than negligent, the plaintiff does not get paid, which feels unfulfilling to a lot of common folk.

The argument that process gets in the way on claims of harassment too easily leads to "buying a subjective narrative." We certainly don't need to investigate Franken's transgressions like serious crimes, but the accused should have an opportunity to put out his version of events and present exculpatory evidence and witnesses. You don't convict on a memoir.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Too late, you're already old if you don't get that cars already drive themselves.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Agreed. I'm not much for beaches, but to each their own when it comes to travel. I too will be quitting again in March. I'm bored again, and the insurance company at which I am in-house has become an increasingly unpleasant workplace.

LessinVancouver

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Congratulations. I wish you the most indulgent and lengthiest of retirements. May you never spend another minute doing anything but what you feel like doing.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

I agree. But some of the allegations were fairly thin and just got lumped in with the initial one because that's what happens. And the initial allegation only gained traction because there was a photo.

I'm not saying Franken wasn't in the wrong. I'm not saying that the allegations weren't true. But it can't just be that someone gets accused and they're over. There has to be some thought put behind how severe the punishment should be in relation to what he did. And he should absolutely have the right to be heard before judgment by a formal body* is passed.

TM

*And this includes getting the whole crew together and forcing you to resign.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

Sure, but if formal proceedings can't be trusted to get to the truth, people will continue to call for punishment without waiting for the results of formal proceedings. People like Sebby who are offended by the unfairness of that should think about how to make the formal proceedings work better to identify and punish bad actors.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

What formal proceedings would have come from Frakken's alleged acts? Has the senate ever looked at past bad acts?

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

My point wasn't really about Franken specifically, and I don't know the answer to your question.

Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...
 

This isn't untrue. But I expect something better from a sitting Senator. And Gillibrand absolutely tried to own the Franken issue and her responses to questions on the issue were fucking bullshit.
__________
From the 60 Minutes interview:

On being the first Democratic member of Congress to call for Sen. Al Franken, D-Minnesota, to resign amid sexual harassment allegations:

"I have a 14-year-old son. And I cannot have a conversation that says, 'Well, it's OK to grab somebody here, but not there.' It's not OK at all."

She added, "He's entitled to as much due process as he wants. He doesn't ever have to resign. That's his choice. … And my choice is to speak out."
__________
That's not a fucking response. If someone is accused of grabbing someone and they are trying to tell you they didn't do it, responding, "I can't tell my son it's ok to grab someone here, but not there," is intentionally disingenuous. And using all of your efforts to short-circuit his ability to have a fair investigation and then acting like it's his choice to resign is insulting. That whole thing pissed me off.

And some things can't be made better. An allegation against someone who brushed his hand against a backside 10 years ago cannot be proven. The question is whether we can actually talk to each of the parties and make a determination about whether it happened, and if it did, what an appropriate punishment would be. But banishment can't be the answer to absolutely everything, soup to...er...nuts.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Smart guy, does Tom Brady delegate some of the passes in the superbowl? I didn't think so.

We don't provide snacks. I actually turn off the water and remove all of the toilet paper from the bathrooms.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Shit I would make Bezos's dick pic my phone background to keep getting stuff delivered for free.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Peace!