Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Or perhaps more accurately, not undermined as much as if an executive order were the only outcome of clearly illegal conduct.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Bullshit. Hang 'em, Obama included. (You don't really believe he didn't continue it on a smaller scale or through proxies, do you?)

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

To be clear: I would greatly prefer he prosecute people.

Failing to prosecute is bad, but is a recognition of the reality of how messy that would be. Pardoning is an affirmative act of forgiveness, which I would truly hate to see for many reasons.

A minor reason is that I don't want anyone (e.g., Rand Paul) to claim that "well, I really would want to prosecute, and I'm sure my party would support me, but Mr. Drone-Killer President went out and pardoned everyone."

A far greater reason is that the President of the United States should not pardon torturers. Ever.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I don't understand your "precedent" point. Pardons do not have to go through an approval process from the courts or anyone else. A Presidential pardon, before any charges have been issued, can mean as little as merely that this particular President thinks what you did might have been illegal and wants to protect you from being prosecuted for it.

Should the President of the US forgive people who tortured prisoners? I keep coming back to that question, and think that it compels the answer of "NO."


eta: To be clear, you did not need to say the first part to be clear. It was already clear. To be clear, I agree with you entirely.

And he begged me to stop, but they told me to go.
 

Well-played, sir -- I say well-played.

*Today's re line is from "Buzzer" by Dar Williams, a song she based on the famous Milgram experiment. I'd like to think that I wouldn't press the buzzer, but who knows? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

I love it when John McCain speaks about torture. A shame he's been the only GOP leader who does.

I think that we should all be reminded that the only prosecutions in the US related to torture in the War on Terror have been pushed by the administration of a former constitutional law professor - unfortunately, it was a prosecution in 2012 of a CIA whistleblower named John Kiriakou who is sitting in a federal prison. Oh, and not really torture related, but also potentially James Risen of the New York Times regarding a leak from the CIA. Thanks, Barry!

Re: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

Someone pithier than me said that conservatives only show empathy on an issue when they themselves have been affected by it.

Whether that means that other GOP leaders should be tortured, I leave to the imagination.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Instead of being tortured enemies of the state should have been given:

A. Flowers and candy;
B. US Citizenship
C. A NYC taxi medallion
D. All of the above?

Re: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

I think that's true of all people, actually. Recall the old line about a neoconservative (original 1960s/1970s version) being a liberal who's been mugged.

And I think that you do McCain a great disservice by saying that - I'm too lazy to research this, but I'm mainly sure that I am mostly correct when I say that many people who have suffered from torture have no problem with torture as a principle, just in who is doing it. I disagree with the Arizona senator on many grounds, and I think he's flipped on many issues (as many politicians do), but the fact that he put aside his visceral dislike for Obama to make a public stand on this says a lot to me. He could have not said anything, but he went on the floor of the Senate immediately to make his views clear.

At any rate, this is our political era's version of the Church Report. It will be interesting to see if any structural reforms result. I am Not Optimistic.

Re: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

If conservatives stick with these "tough on crime" and "permanent war on terror" angles they've been running for so long, I think a lot of them are going to learn in coming years what it feels like to be a Black man dealing with the cops.

The racist police state we're creating, and the chilling effect on speech caused by the witch hunts against leakers/whistleblowers, aren't going to abate. They are going to grow, and they will need fuel for such expansion. They're going to start encroaching on the rights of targets beyond minorities and extreme leakers.

It's in no manner alarmist to argue we will have something akin to Minority Report crime and dissent prevention in about a decade. This will be largely automated, and it will punish based more on strict liability than intent-based crimes. This sort of unthinking zero tolerance state will sweep up conservatives for all sorts of infractions which can be determined by computer analysis (tax matters, business regulation violations, inside trades, whisteblowing via internet communication, etc.) in much the same way stop and frisk policies fish net poor minorities.

It'll be interesting to see how "tough on crime" or supportive of a govt that must "punish leakers" these conservatives who see nothing wrong with the Garner murder, or call for Snowden's head, are when they're in the cross hairs. And they will be.

Re: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

I agree with this. Unfortunately, including the last few words.

Re: Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
 

3.

One of the more tragic victims of the tea party was McCain's honor, which he pandered away to the loonies as fast as he could during the Presidential race. It's nice to see him recovering some of it.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. Given that?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Courts have recognized that torture violates customary international law. The US not prosecuting admitted torture undermines the argument that torture is recognized universally as illegal.

A pardon says this president thought what you did was illegal. Doing nothing says perhaps this president does not, which is affirmatively what the prior president and his advisers asserted.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Or, you know, just interrogated without the torture, which is where they gave up all of the useful information they provided anyway.

Or is torture just punishment for being "enemies? If so, how do you justify all the completely innocent people who were tortured?