On the subject of having 3 or more kids. What do you drive? We have 3 kids and have a minivan (which I'm not afraid to admit I love). I thought about finally getting rid of the gas guzzling giant SUV that is our second car but am running into the problem that all of the wagons (Outback, Audi, Volvo) can't quite handle three car seats across the middle (kids are all under 5) and most of the modest sized SUV's (4Runner, V90, etc) if they do have third row seating the third row is pressed against the back window so that getting rear ended seems really scary. At this point I'm thinking I need to hope that my kids grow into booster seats before the car dies (it's at 120K which I'm told in the world of Chevrolets means it's knocking on death's door). I can't really wrap my head around having a car that can't actually fit the whole family even if they primarly ride in the van. Any ideas?

I don't understand the need to have two cars that each can accomodate the entire family. I think this is a new expectation. Most of my grade school peers had at least three kids in their respective fams, and only Mom's car was able to accomodate them (this was in the days before minivans, natch) and no one ever saw this as a problem. Riding in Dad's car was considered a rare treat.

Obviously family dynamics have changed since 1977 --- lord knows the length of time in which you're required to be in some kind of safety seat has risen with time --- but my image is that every family has (1) a family car and (2) a sedan/roadster. Get a Mini or CLK depending on your budget.

I wish someone had told me this before I sold my sportier coupe for a slow SUV. THANKS A LOT ATTICUS.

We don't. We have a pickup that is not appropriate for babies at any time and a Camry. Boring, huh? The Ford is getting elderly, so it will be replaced soon, but we're not sure what with. We hope to have more than 2 kids, so the replacement vehicle may try to accomodate that or we may just put one of the kids in the trunk with a bunch of pillows.

Much as I hate to say it, get a minivan even if you're planning to stay at 2. When we upgraded to 2 we considered a minivan but the wife vetoed on the basis of the allegedly diminished MILFedness of minivan drivers. So we got a wagon, which we like, BUT THERE IS NEVER ENOUGH FUCKING ROOM. We can't do things like drive friends to the airport etc. without it being a major production. I wish I'd held out for the minivan. Vanity of vanities; all is vanity!

Far be it from me to criticize the Grinchish family values, but in some families childcare isn't entirely the wife's domain, and thus each spouse needs a car that can accommodate the kids.

2. Atticus why don't YOU get the minivan. The girlies will love you- it shows you go all the way NOALWTALW.

Understood. I tried to be gender neutral except when describing my experience in the '70s, where it was definitely moms in the big car. The behemoth can follow the kids on any particular day, but IMHO it's possible to avoid having 2 SUVs or two minivans if you really want to.

How do you do this if you have one parent dropping off in the morning and the other parent picking up in the afternoon?

Give people some fucking credit. Obviously, my advice wouldn't apply to someone who ALREADY KNOWS THEY NEED TWO CARS THAT EACH CAN ACCOMODATE 100% OF THEIR KIDS IN CARSEATS. But such a person would not ask a board full of anonymous lawyers, "Do I really need two cars that each can accomodate all of my kids?" I interpreted OscarCrease's original question to be WHETHER it's possible to get by with two cars, one of which can't hold all the kids. I pointed out that every car-owning generation prior to this one has found the answer to be "yes." The modern families for whom the answer is "no" already know who they are.

Fringey, you know I heart you to pieces, but jeebus.

You didn't do well in reading comprehension on the LSAt, did you? Oscar asked for car recs, not affirmation of need. Your taking the stance of knowing what all familys need might be a little bit pompous, no? And wouldn't buying a car that won't hold the children guarentee that he wouldn't have to pick up or drop off until the lease expires? It just seems to me that buying a vehicle that forces his spouse to stay in the role of sole child transport is a bit passive-aggressive. you vote Republican, don't you?

2, other than the R part. You and Sidd are close, yes?

Chevy SUVs
 

I've driven Suburbans that had over 750,000 miles on them and they still worked perfectly. Even the power mirrors were still functional and those things never last. I wouldn't worry about your current beast yet unless it's already showing signs of imminent death.

I interpreted "I can't really wrap my head around having a car that can't actually fit the whole family even if they primarly ride in the van. Any ideas?" to invite the response I gave, to wit, "My idea is to wrap your head around having a car that can't actually fit the whole family."

It used to be that conservatives were the ones in the business of telling people non-affirming things that they didn't want to hear.

Which is precisely why I explained that I assumed the way he asked his question meant he was potentially receptive to my response. Not all families can swing this; my point (which remains lost on you) is that some families can, and he should consider whether he belongs to one of them. That you, or Fringey, or Ty, or frankly anyone, is a member of a family that cannot does nothing to either (1) defeat my point or (2) make my point somehow sexist or pompous.

Frankly, no. I reiterate: There are families that somehow manage to arrange to have productive lives with only one car that can fit ALL of the kids at once. I cannot think of any that have two minivans, and precious few with two SUVs. Why is that controversial? Is SF the only place on the planet where one family member can drive a Prius without reducing the other to domestic slave or houseboy?

Please. It was quite clear where you were coming from. Your wife should be barefoot and pregnant, except when required to wear shoes so as to drive the family truckster to pick up the fruit of your loins. Meanwhile, you'll be out in the Z4, having a blast.

Chevy SUVs
 

That was Chevys made pre 1990, which are still running like clockwork today. Post 1990 Chevys start to go on life support at 60k and die two years after that.

Really, I think it's obvious that the nanny gets the minivan, and the parents get whatever they want.

It would have been good if he'd made it clearer that they were, like, trading off days to pick up the kids etc. It still seems like it would be difficult to have a two-career family with only one child-friendly car. Perhaps every couple (he knows) in SF is a one-career family; the other spouse either doesn't work or has a job with limited hours.

or they divvy up the kids.

(really I just wanted to say "divvy"; no need for thought out responses to this possibility and why it wouldn't work.)

You and your fancy ivy-league words.

Well plus in Berkeley the Government limits you to one child right? I think that was Berkeley, maybe it was somewhere else.

There's a screenplay here. I'm thinking Days of Thunder meets The Birdcage. Someone get str8 on the phone.

OscarCrease is actually a little sorry he asked.

Seriously though:

(1) I think the reference to the 70's isn't the most helpful although pleasantly nostalgic. In fact, one of my fondest memories is my friend's alcoholic dad who used to drive us to the museum (hmm, why was he always home during the day) in his Pinto that had a hole in the floor. We (4-5 neighborhood kids) would gather around the hole in the way back (the part I think that bursts into flame if you are rear-ended) and drop things onto the freeway. Good Times. Unfortunately, this whole car seat business got in the way...

(2) I tend to agree with Atticus on the point that you don't necessarily need two big ass cars. While I do in fact do drop off, only our oldest goes to school so I don't need to fit all three in the car simultaneously on a regular basis. My wife is concerned about the emergency scenario where her car is in the shop/disabled/whatever and we can't fit everyone into car #2. I don't necessarily agree that it makes much sense, but that's neither here nor there. FWIW I didn't take the post as a gender polemic. I would certainly prefer a smaller second car but 2 Britax Roudabouts + a Britax Marathon = the need for a very wide middle row and/or a third row.

In any case, I was just wondering what fellow parents have found in the non-van, non super size SUV category that they like. We shared 1 modest sized SUV (although at the time I think it was considered "full size") until child #2. Inherited the aforementioned giant SUV from a family member. Traded in SUV #1 for the minivan upon birth of child #3 because it was the older and less reliable of the two.

Now SUV #2 is feeling a little long in the tooth (and the repair bills are getting more frequent and of greater magnitude) so I foolishly, and perhaps regrettably, posted my inquiry.

So, to recap, after my last post about Bay Area housing prices I was told "only an asshat would buy in the Bay Area." After this latest post I'm now "that gas guzzling freak who drives two giant cars."

I will now withdraw from the board and go slit my wrists.

I feel I'm too blame! Let me explain. Atticus Grinch is a homo. he doesn't have kids or a wife. he posts on this board as a beard. fringey and I are longtime FOA (friends of Atticus) we just tweak him so that he doesn't get cocky, and start thinkng the beard isn't transparent to anyone but the people at his firm. If you never leave the office, then the family pix on the desk can't be questioned!

Let me preface this by saying (once again) that I don't have kids, so my advice is automatically suspect. And I don't even like SUVs, though I understand their practicality in certain situations.

Before everyone else got off-track on the discussion (thanks, Atticus!), I was going to mention that one of the attorneys in my office has 5 kids (2-3 in the baby/toddler range, 2 older kids from a prior marriage) and he swears by the bigger Volvo SUV. He says it is the only vehicle smaller than a Suburban that actually holds all the kids, and in relative comfort.

You said that you were concerned about 3rd row safety, and I have no idea how that model stacks up, but being that it is a Volvo and they stake their entire reputation on being super safe, I would think that they would have worked that all out.

$.02.

You are, but for a different reason. Detroit gave everyone the idea that if you're big and husky you can still fit comforably in a car. Have you seen the Britax marathon? It's like a stay-puff cocoon for kids.

Well, for what it's worth, I have an acura MDX, and it's big enough for multiple kids, but not superhuge, and it's actually a pretty decent deal if you get the base model, lots of standard options included. Gas mileage isn't that great, I average about 18 mpg blended use, but whatever. I couldn't give a goddamn about the environment. In fact, while I drive my SUV, I also burn coal in the backseat while spraying pesticides at passing motorists.

You would think. I personally would put only the carpool kids in the third row of a volvo wagon.

We are soulmates. Pass the beef jerky.

Please be careful- remember there's a chance number 2 son is actually mine- we'll know for sure when he's older- simple test: does he read his penis enlargement spam email with a hopeful glint in his eye, or just delete?

Just put the youngest ones back there; you aren't as attached to them b/c they haven't been around as long. Or use it as the reserve car -- have the minivan as the primary kid car, and the station wagon as the car used by whatever parent isn't primarily responsible for the kids that day.

w/r/t "While I do in fact do drop off, only our oldest goes to school so I don't need to fit all three in the car simultaneously on a regular basis." unless the two other kids are twin newborns AND the older kid is going to boarding school for 2nd grade on, at some point in the not-so-distant future you are going to be carting more than one kid around on a daily basis. To activities, if not to school. Or such is my impression.

God, I'm glad I don't have to deal with this crap.

fwiw I don't think you are an idiot; I do kind of hate SUVs and would prefer that you have minivans or station wagons; if you must have an SUV, please at least get one with lower bumpers. Please think of the horrific survivor's remorse that Junior will have when there is a malfunctioning traffic light and your SUV runs over his best friend's family's Camry and smushes them all.

ETA I'm posting primarily because I'm putting off going home (houseguests), and secondarily because I like logic puzzles and it pisses off parents that I have the temerity to post. I'm not a parent, though I did do a lot of babysitting and have friends/relatives who are parents. I am also preternaturally perky because someone just gave me absolute veto power over outside counsel. Heh.

I sold my SUV. Can NB&A participate in the beauty contest, please?

(and, on point, what about a Subaru?)

Having an SUV/Minivan and a wagon is no solution. Except if you have Ty's wife and you're stuck driving the odyssey.

My SIL has an Outback. Surprisingly big on the outside (bulges below the waterline), deceptively small on the inside. The Forester seems to get bigger with each generation, and it's no longer fugly, thank God. YMMV. Ha!

I don't hang out with the crowd that can afford nannies --- I can think of only one close friend who does, and they have only one kid (at the moment). In fairness, while it remains true that I can't think of a single two minivan or two SUV family, all of the people in my mental inventory with 3 or more kids of booster/carseat age (thereby presenting this problem) have scaled back on one of their careers for non-car-size-related reasons.

Three kids not in carseats can fit in the backseat of a Prius.

You might not have realized that on any board on which Hank, Fringey, Burger and I are all posting, eventually someone is going to get called a dumbfuck. The trick is not to let it be you.

Maybe not, but I considered the point worth making that what is now considered a necessity was within recent memory an extravagance, and in each case in which that's true we should constantly reconsider whether it's really a necessity. No one on this board is a slave to their circumstances.*

*An exception would be people who are literally slaves.

That would be a VW Passat wagon, which we love. But I'm unclear whether we could fit three car seats across the back. (Here in California, Gov. Arnold will come kick you ass if you put a kid in a car without a carseat unless the kid has entered high school.) Are there any cars that fit three car seats across a seat, or do you have to go for one of the options that gives you two rows of passenger seating?

Apropos of nothing at all, the NFL draft is that time of year when all of the teams in the league visit Lake Wobegone -- they all get better! But by the time the regular season starts, they'll only win half their games, more or less.

Hell, they'll also fit in one of those portable dog kennels, and you have a better chance that way of making sure that CHP doesn't see them out of their carseats.

For "be" read "get to."

Seriously, what age do kids get to be out of car seats? Or is it a height?

Chevy SUVs
 

We traded our 1995 in at 227,000 miles. I had to replace the serpentine belt at 160,000 and the brakes at 150,000. Other than that, all I had done was changing the oil.

Depends on the state. In DC it's 8 y.o., but there's some exception for super-fats. I wouldn't want my kids to hit that exception.

From my (albeit limited) experience piling kids in cars for preschool field trips, it depends on the car seat, but it is often possible to fit three across the back row of a minivan. I have also installed three car seats across the back seat of my mom's Infiniti, and I have probably done it (though I'm not 100% sure--it would have been a short-term thing, on a family vacation) in my Outback.

And speaking of my Outback, we haven't had any complaints about its size. We've been able to fit an insane amount of stuff in it, including an overstuffed rocking chair (Deserva rocker from Restoration Hardware--same as one of the rockers from Pottery Barn kids) and a large chest of drawers (not at the same time), without putting the back seat down. We've also taken 200-mile car trips with four adults and one toddler with no ill effects (this was easier when he was still in the Roundabout, which sits higher and allows a little more butt space for the grownups). However, when we start having two car seats this summer, any third person sitting in the back seat will probably have to be really slim to fit--won't know for sure until we try.

This is not the latest model (ours is a 2000), and I don't know if the current one is appreciably smaller.

tm