Real Liberal and Conservative wanted...
 

The Anti-Federalist Society didn't have quite the same ring.

Real Liberal and Conservative wanted...
 

I aknowledge that on second thought this is very ambiguous. I believe that the federal government plays an important role in our society and has the ability to provide regulations and services to the citizens of this country in way that is more efficient and fair than if those same areas were left to the states. For example, environmental regulations, as well as the regulation of financial markets. I don't have a problem with the federal government as a govenment per se (although, of course, I may have problems with those in charge, and may disagree with particular policies).

In other words, unlike what appears to be the Republican party position, I believe there is a larger role for the Federal government than merely funding the armed forces and stamping out porn.

Did you expect I meant something different?

Real Liberal and Conservative wanted...
 

I thought it meant you were into states rights. I don't really care about states rights. It is individual rights I care about. If the individual is better off having some powers limited to the states, so be it, but I don't really don't care about state interests.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Balt - you said you are for affirmative action. Do you really think affirmative action can solve anything. Please read below:



Ironically, his supporters always call him "the honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan," though he is anything but honorable. Farrakhan is back, with a "Millions More" march on Washington to commemorate the so-called Million Man March of a decade ago.

The whole notion that marches on Washington should be covered respectfully and even reverentially is outdated -- a throwback to the civil rights era, when marches led by true civil rights leaders really merited such attention. But the 1960s are ancient history. Today if we want to hear from African-American leaders, we can consult the State Department daily briefing, the "Oprah" show, the Fortune 500, the nightly news on television, our neighbor or our child's teacher. We can look to any realm of American life, because blacks are well-represented pretty much everywhere.

Still, it is true, as the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina underlined, that parts of the black community remain poor and dysfunctional. Yet what can a march do for them? In his message (er, ranting) posted on the Internet, Farrakhan demanded "freedom for all political prisoners held in U.S. prisons and detention facilities, both foreign and domestic. We demand an end to police brutality, mob attacks, racial profiling, the herding of our young men and women into prisons, and the biological and chemical warfare perpetrated against our people." Elsewhere, Farrakhan renews his demand for reparations to the descendants of slaves and calls for "the establishment of peace in the world. We demand an end to wars of foreign aggression waged by the United States government against other sovereign nations and peoples. We demand an end to senseless violence and advocate peace amongst street organizations (gangs) and youth."

Okay. Now back to planet Earth. More than 75 percent of African-Americans are middle or upper class in 2005. Among those who make up the 24.7 percent in poverty, the overwhelming majority are unmarried women and their children. Family structure is the alpha and omega of poverty in America. You can slice the statistical pie in a thousand ways and still come to the same conclusion. For example: In 1995, the poverty rate for married couple black families was about 8 percent. In the same year, the poverty rate for families headed by white single women was about 27 percent. As David Eggebeen and Daniel T. Lichter wrote in the American Sociological Review, "Children from female-headed homes are five times as likely to be poor as children in two-parent families and nine times as likely to be in deep poverty." Maggie Gallagher, massaging the data a bit more to include a comparison with families that start and remain intact, yielded this statistic: "A child that is born out of wedlock is 30 times more likely to live in poverty than a child that was born in a marriage and whose parents stayed married."


The prisons are full of African-American youths. Some Farrakhan followers and others who are simply misinformed interpret this datum as evidence of racism in police departments and courts throughout the country. But not just any African-Americans crowd the prisons. The prisons are dominated by males raised without fathers. And while the illegitimacy rate among Americans at large is frighteningly high at 25 percent, it is stratospheric among blacks at 68 percent.

We are beyond the era of marches. The march on Washington Martin Luther King Jr. led in 1963 demanded, rightly of course, that the white majority live up to its responsibilities and cease hindering and persecuting American blacks. But no march and no demand can cure what ails some black Americans today. Only a profound renewal of faith in the values of marital fidelity and commitment can hope to alter the landscape of poverty. These are matters of spirit and belief; they can come only from within a community, not from outside.

But it is not impossible to achieve such a renewal. In the 19th century, Britain underwent a profound reformation of mores and morals led by the Victorians. Through Sunday schools, YMCAs, temperance societies and charitable work, they were able dramatically to reduce levels of crime, drunkenness and family breakdown. Within the black community today, there are many similar efforts (for example, the ministry of Eugene Rivers and the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise). To succeed though, blacks will have to reconcile themselves to the hard truth that poverty among blacks is about family structure, not white racism.

Mona Charen is a syndicated columnist and political analyst living in the Washington, D.C., area.

Voting
 

What are you getting at here? Is this a secret message???

The Cause of Poverty
 

Ask Clarence Thomas.

S_A_M

The Cause of Poverty
 

Regarding the article, I think both the stastics are carefully being manipulated to make a point. And even so, so what. Assume its true that there is no active white racism holding down black people. It's really just their family structure. I know that in in your world view that puts all the blame on them, then, but answer me one question: how did the families get that way? Could it have something to do with a cultural history of having families torn apart by white slave masters?

I know, I know, it was 140 years ago that slavery ended. I'm not suggesting that affirmative action be perpetual either. I'd prefer to see affirmative action that slowly over time (over say a generation) transforms from race based to economic status based.

But just saying "hey, we've had affirmative action for 40 years and there's no more racism" is b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I still think there is lots of racism. I think the United States is the least racist country in the world (and works the hardest at combating racism) but that is kind of like saying that you are the least pathological serial killer.

Humans are by nature racist. However, how do you deal with racism? I do not see reverse racism as the answer.

Affirmative action has been tried in many countrys (India, Malaysia, Kenya, South Africa etc) and it always causes a backlash and never seems to address the problem.

In every country it has been tried it has increased the stigma of the group it is trying to help. In Malaysia they tried quotas in the universities (to combat the majority of ethnic Chinese) and all it has done is convinced everyone that Malays are not as qualified.

In addition, in the United States, many groups that face racism still succeed. In this countrys many minority groups and recent immigrants excel.

In addition, I have seen studies that show black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean do much better than native African Americans. This leads me to believe that it is more of an African American cultural issue than a structural racism issue.

I think Affirmative Action has made the problem worse and affirmative action should be stopped as soon as possible before it makes the problem worse.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I have no problem getting rid of affirmative action, as long as in doing so we also get rid of other institutational biases toward particular groups. For example, preference to children of alumni in college admissions.

Ultimately, this is a very difficult issue, and I think the approach of using cultural, ethnic and racial diversity as a goal and treating it as a good thing without setting quotas works pretty well. Because at my alma mater, at least, the alumni children will be hugely disproportionately white, privilieged and suburban, and if there wasn't consideration to the bias this creates in admitting the other 2/3 of the class, it would be a very sad thing indeed.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Because it's a "cultural problem" it's not an issue so affirmative action should stop? Is that because African American culture doesn't instill adequate self-discipline, the fundamental building block to being a moral person, and therefore blacks are immoral and unworthy of assistance? When you cut through the rhetoric of the article you posted, that's exactly what you are arguing.

"Tough Love" seems like a good idea; we'll just stop coddling African Americans and they'll pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Or fall into a permenant underclass. Either way though, it won't matter, because it's just "cultural." Since it's "cultural" they can change it if only they apply themselves. Since they can (in theory) change it, if they fail to do so, why should you be burdened?

Affirmative action is not a monolithic entity. I suspect there are types of "affirmative action" we would both agree are unacceptable or at least counter productive. I suspect there are policies some have characterized as "affirmative action" that I could convince you are actually a good idea.

I'm as advantaged as one can get: white, anglo-saxon, heterosexual, male, educated, (relatively) wealthy and completely abled. Additionally, I'm particularly good at taking standardized tests. In theory, affirmative action can do nothing but hurt me. But I would be poorer had I gone to college with just people exactly like me, and I am poorer for working almost exclusively with people exactly like me as peers.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I would like to see this. I would like to see Spanky convinced of anything that he doesn't already believe in. You have one day, mr. baltassoc, to convince Spanky of something. Go!

The Cause of Poverty
 

Now, is Balt the one you're sleeping with?

The Cause of Poverty
 

Because if there were dumber people at your job you mightn't always be dumbest?

The Cause of Poverty
 

For public universities there should be no preferences for children Alumni. I also don't think Public universities should use affirmative action. Private colleges can do what ever the hell they want. Affirmative action, favoring alumni etc.


I don't mind affirmative action if it doesn't include quota and preferences. Actually I think unversities shoud try and diversify. In addition, it is government instituted affirmative action I don't think is acceptible.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Back in the War of Northern Aggression, we had this orderly attached to my command who wasn't quite all there, but who came from a good, if somewhat inbred, family. Now, the orderly had learned early on to say, "I'm smart" over and over again, and we all nodded and said, yes, Henry, you are one smart fellow. Of course it wasn't true, but it made the boy smile.

One day, though, he decided that the other side of the coin was that if he was smart, other people must be dumb. And we humored him there for a while. We all got a little chuckle whenever he called us dumb, and he called everyone from Jeff Davis to Stonewall dumb at one point or another.

The problem came, though, when we were withdrawing in Virginia toward the closing days of the war. One bad day had followed another, my troops were deserting me, and I heard more shots being fired at deserters than Yankees. Well, now, he called me dumb for exposing Richmond, and I'd just had enough.

He saw my rage and he fled. I know he'd heard my orders to summarily shoot deserters fleeing the battle. I am truly sorry now, but how could the poor boy have known, given his facilities, that soldiers running in the direction away from the battle were what I meant when I said "deserters"?

We gave the boy an honorable burial.

The Cause of Poverty
 

From your style, politics, and who is online when you post it's pretty clear who you are really. I gave up Ty@50, mostly, and that was a good sock idea. Time to retire this one?

The Cause of Poverty
 

Yes, Hank, you're one smart fellow.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Affirmative action never fixes anything. So affirmatige action should not be seen as a remedy. If a culture has a certain mindset, then government social tinkering is no the answer.

Here you are following into the trap into thinking in terms of groups rather than individuals. And also you are assuming that an individual will always be a slave to their cultural influences. Neither is correct. Individuals are not the one and the same of any group they occupy. An individual can be a certain way and their culture can be another way.

I never said that blacks were unworthy of assistance. They should get the same assistance that every other US citizen gets.

I don't like them being part of a permanent underclass. But I an not interested in spending money and resources on programs that don't help or might even make the situation worse.

That is possible, but it is preference and quotas that I don't accept. In california, when the insituted an initiative to end preferences and quotas it was labeled an attempt to end affirmative action. But if you say you are for affirmative action that doesn't include preferences and quotas then I agree with you.

If affirmative action does not include quotas and prefernces then how does it hurt you? From all the statistics I have seen, if you finish highschool, don't have a child until you finish highschool, and have a child in wedlock statistically the chances of living in poverty are almost nil. As far as the wedlock rule works, it is fine if you get divorced afterwards or if both parents take responsiblity for the child. HOwever, there is a high correlary between children born out of wedlock and absentee fathers.

So the solution to chronic poverty is getting people to finish high school, and wait to have children when they are married and done with high school. I think the leadership in the african american community would play a much more productive role in the future of their people if they would focus on those issues. Instead they look for people to blame, and think they can address their problems with further government laws and programs. I don't think any more government involvement will help. Except of course government programs that help keep kids in school and help people from having children until they finish high school and are married.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I'm not sure Spanky doesn't already agree with me on this, but here goes: I believe that race should be a factor (but not a quota) in college admissions.

Here is why: there's different cultures among different "races," which are cultural constructs in any event. Spanky has already acknowledged this fact, albeit in a pejoritive way. It is important to have a variety of cultures represented in a university environment or else it becomes stale. Blacks and hispanics and jews and mormons and asians and hindus and muslims and pacific islanders and aleutians should be admitted not just for their sake, but for mine.

"But shouldn't," one might ask, "admissions be simply merit based?" The response is that our tools for measuring merit are fundamentally flawed (although certainly helpful). A university's concern should be first to admit students who will succeed and thrive in the university and (perhaps more importantly) in the world beyond as alumni. But that turns out to be relatively easy, at least for elite institutions. At one institution for which I am familiar with the statistics (having gone through some training with them to be an alumni interviewer), approximately half the applicants are "admittable" in the sense that the admissions office, based on its experience, has reason to believe the person would not just survive but thrive in the universty. (If this seems like a high number, consider that many, many people self-select out of elite colleges and don't bother wasting time and money applying to one which they feel they have no chance of getting into.)

Problem is, half the applicants is still roughly 10 times the size of the sought after freshman class, and two and a half times the size of the number of admittees necessary to compose such a class (few applicants to elite schools apply to only one - on average it's more like four, and if they get into one, they're going to likely get into all of them, so a yield of about 30-35% is pretty decent). So how does one whittle down the pool of "acceptable" applicants to those actually accepted? One way would be to just create a matrix of SATs and GPAs (adjusted for school reputation and coursework difficulty, of course) and admit the ones at the top of that. There are certainly advocates of that technique (generally, people for whom that would be an advantage). One might also consider extracurricular activities like sports or music. Or student leadership. Or volunteering. Or whether the person demonstrated responsibility by having a job.

But what about overcoming a hardship? What about offering a different perspective? Is it better to offer a white kid with an extra 30 points on his SAT a spot than a black kid? I think the answer depends in part on how many people one has already admitted who look in some way like those two kids.

Remember, in all these cases, the kids are "admittable." They all have resumes that indicate they are good enough to succeed. In that context, using "race" as a proxy for a set of cultural experiences seems no less arbitrary than using an SAT score as a proxy for analytical accuity.

ETA: BTW, I don't see this analysis really being different for state-sponsored institutions.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Okay, Spanky: answer me this: what's the link between affirmative action and a) teens having babies, b) teens dropping out of high school, or c) having children out of wedlock?

Is it possible affirmative action could be a good thing for society even if it doesn't address any of those factors (although, I think it actually does, by targeting an incentive to a group in need of it)?

The Cause of Poverty
 

To me Affirmative action is an important, and unfortunately necessary tool. Not so that my kids go to school with different kids. anyone who really believes that important would raise their kids where they go to school with different type kids*. AA is important because it gives hope to kids in situations that may often seem quite hopeless. There are kids locked into horrible schools and if they see no chance why should they try?

The thing that will happen over time is that as the black middle class grows, AA will be of less and less value to the really beat kids in slum schools. It will need to evolve beyond race, I think, to provide any help to the real needy.

*I call bullshit on some of the benefits of haveing many different types. U of Michigan admitted a kid a few years back in part because his background helped diversity- he was a convicted murderer who was realed from prison at 18. His experience was seen as a valuable additon to the university. Balt- you want your kid rooming with this guy?

The Cause of Poverty
 

Huh. Given your professed loyalties, I figured you'd say this was simply representative of the student population there.

The Cause of Poverty
 

First of all if the test are fundamentally flawed, then the solution is to fix the test instead of trying to compensate for them. Because how do you know that you are compensating in the right way? In a taxpayer financed institution every citizen needs to be given an equal chance to get in. You can't favor one group over another.

At the university of California at Berkeley the Asian population continued to grow until at 40% the university decided to cap it. They didn't tell anyone but after a while what they did became obvious. People cried foul. And they should have. The quotas and prefernces they had were favoring hispanic and african american applicants over Asian applicants. In addition, by limiting Asian entraces they were actually letting less qualified white student in also (even though the white student weren't specifically chosen for quotas).

Clearly, many Asian families, transporting their Asian culture to here, have a stronger emphasis on education than people raised in a traditional american culture. The answer is not a quota or preference, it is to try and get both african and white americans to focus more in education in their families.

If UC Berkely becomes 99% Asian they may not provide the optiminally diverse environment for students, but the answer is not reverse disrimination. It is fixing the problem at its source. But if the Asian students continue to work harder, and my children are busy playing gameboy, then the Asian students should get the spots.

The Cause of Poverty
 

Preferences and Quotas don't help the situation. On the other hand they convince the general population that, what ever group is being helped, that none of the members of that particular group are as qualified as non members.

In Malaysia, everyone asks for an ethnic Chinese doctor because they think all the Malay doctors are not as qualified. The Hoover insitution did polls on African Americans in this country and asked them about Doctors and many African americans said they preferred white doctors because they had fears the black doctors were not as qualified.

So the result of prefernces and quotas, is that the general population assumes that everyone in a favored group has benefited from them, which of course is not true. You end up making the situation even worse.

The Cause of Poverty
 

What? No odds? No bets?

And they're off
 

DeLay to face 2 in March primary

By WENDY BENJAMINSON
Associated Press


HOUSTON - A brawling three-way Republican primary is getting under way for the congressional seat held by embattled U.S. Rep. Tom DeLay.

DeLay already is campaigning against former Democratic U.S. Rep. Nick Lampson. But his campaign isn't exactly ignoring the two opponents in the March primary, calling one a joke and questioning whether the other is even a Republican.

Michael Fjetland, a lawyer with his own international practice, filed Friday to enter the GOP primary in his fourth try at unseating DeLay. Pat Baig, a former teacher and political newcomer, said she plans to file papers soon but already has begun campaigning.

DeLay, the former House Majority leader who is expected to stand trial next year on charges of money laundering in a campaign finance scheme, usually campaigns quietly without much concern for his re-election in a solidly Republican district.

DeLay has been rocked not only by criminal charges, but the Supreme Court's decision Monday to review the Texas congressional redistricting plan he engineered.

And a recent poll showed 53 percent of voters in his Houston-area 22nd Congressional District would vote for someone other than DeLay if the general election were held today.

The Cause of Poverty
 

So you admit it's a non-sequitor? Good.

Now, let's talk about how to get teens to think about not dropping out from school. What would you suggest?

I'm thinking a program targeted to at risk kids that gives them an incentive to stay in school with the promise of additional education (and hence, opportunities) down the line.

But wait! I can't do that. It would be giving a preference. It would be affirmative action. I have to open up the program to everyone, and so I either have to have an unlimited number of spots, or I have to give them based on "merit." Who do you think is going to get those "merit" spots? The teen I'm trying to give an incentive to, or the kid who was already going to go to college?

And they're off
 

The fact that 47 percent would still vote for him today is so very, very not right.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I don't know about the rest of the country but here in California Junior College is open to all, and it is pretty easy to get into the state school system.

In addition, the state will pay for people to go to almost any trade school.

If you stay in school the opportunities are there. The only issue concerning affirmative action is who gets into the UC system.

Another thing the system in California does it give the top students at every highschool guranteed admittance. Regardless of their scores. So if you live an affluent white neighborhood and the competition is too tough, then you can always send your kids to the poor intercity school.

That also increases diversity without resorting to racial quotas and preferences.

It is clever how the UC and UT systems have managed to take advantage of the utter failure of those states to effectively desegregate primary and secondary schools to create effective stealth affirmative action programs.

ETA: And if you don't think those programs are being labeled affirmative action, or quotas, or preferences, you aren't listening to parents whose kids finished in the top 25%, but not the top 10% at [insert public high school serving some wealthy suburban enclave here].

The Cause of Poverty
 

hahahahahahahaha! Try to tell that to the development people.

The Cause of Poverty
 

I agree that in many ways, economic diversity (or AA) is more critical than race-based AA for many of the reasons you and Balt said.

In many areas, though, economics-based AA ends up being very similar to race-based AA in terms of the end result. However, no one can say that economics-based AA is unconstitutional. I know that some colleges have gone to such programs after the recent rulings against racial targets.

S_A_M

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

I honestly can't believe that this was ever an issue and it took us so long to come to this basic conclusion: Speaking of cattle prods, there is no end to the amount of trouble you get into if you use one on your sister. No matter what she did to your Barbie, avoid the cattle prods.

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

Finally, an insight into what led to her fisting proclivities.

Yes parents complain, but there is no concerted political effort to end them. These regional quotas have never been a hot political issue. At least in Califonira. There is no political concerted effort to end them because they are fair. If you think kids going to a certain school have an advantage you can always send your kid to that school. In addition, a minority kid from a wealthy family can't take advantage of the system either.

There is a huge difference between a regional quota and a racial quota. Often the results may be similar, but one is infinitely more fair and has much less of a negative social impact.

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

Biological or sorority?

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

Racist.

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

Yes, son, SS is dumb.

And you are smart.

Did I ever tell you the one about a captain under my command who was wounded in the most unfortunate place?

After that, that boy had something to prove, I can tell you.

Fire sale on cattle prods
 

Why do you bother?

SS and I voted differently last year, but that isn't why we come here. We come here to get a smile. He's made me laugh about 100 times, most recently the sister thing. We like each other and have respect for each other's wit. You just confuse- not that your posts are confusing, but the reason you post them escapes me- I am pretty sure most other of the better posters have no idea why you bother.

At first I thought you a SS sock. After about 3 posts I realized I was wrong- no way could he grind this crap out. You're either a primary, which is really sad- or some dull- wit who had an idea- make a faux racist sock!!!!!!! Gold star!!!!! the bit is played. if you really think you should keep posting post something beyond your usual stupid posts.

And you can't win a fight with me because no one has ever enjoyed a single post you've made, so no one will take your side. You lack credibility. My first gilligan post, on it's own, beats all your posts.