Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 482162)

I'm terribly sorry to hear about the loss of your twins. I'm a little sorrowful thinking about it so what's below might be overstated accidentally.

You originally asked for "how to sell" a conflicted person — and I assumed that was your husband, not you. Now knowing your situation I'm conflicted about whether to sell. I've had more than my fair share of babies, and have tried to help as dot-commers thousands of miles from their parents have tried to go it alone here on the baby front. Nearly all of them moved "back home," usually shortly after the arrival of Child 2. Truth be told, I'm very enthusiastic about the kind of suburbia we've cultivated here on the Peninsula — if you doubt, look at the beating I happily took two Fridays ago from Sidd and Less — but it has only worked well when either one or both grandparents was also local or there was some other kind of kick-ass support system in place. For us, that took the form of local grandparents plus a hyperactively involved church community helping at all times. No offense, but if our peer group had been more heavily weighted toward DINKs and bohemian SF types who were 30 minutes away at best, I think we would have moved to Virginia by now to be closer to my wife's family. Having kids is a serious business and ours is the first generation to think we could do it thousands of miles from our hometowns (excepting Ma and Pa Wilder, I reckon) and it comes at an enormous toll — cobbled-together daycare arrangements, au pair drama, sick days off work out the wazoo. Being alone in the house with a baby while your rising star husband works nights is going to suck big time, and you'll have to stay committed to the decision it will be worth it in the long run, because during all the short runs on the way it will not seem worth it.

If the person you're convincing is you, I would recommend staying in Texas. Not because the Peninsula is not right, but because all places that are not with your extended family are equally wrong. If you're gung ho for SF but think the Peninsula is a different place, relax. The Peninsula is basically SF with parking and without the nightlife that is useless to young parents anyways. Yes, we're all soccer moms, but there's a place for cool-ass soccer moms in this world, and SF is a place where even the supposedly uncompromising liberals put their kids in $30K private schools, so don't take advice from anyone who is living a life there that you cannot.

If you need advice about cities or school districts, hit me up on FB chat — I wouldn't want to offend Flinty.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 482160)

Yeah, the people are definitely a major factor in the equation. A lot of my people, seem to be doing the Texodus from places like the Mission and the East Bay, including my sister, who just gave up after 15 years in the SFBA. She's living on a ranch for a year and then headed to Austin to grad school after establishing residency here. Out of state here is cheaper than in state in one of the UCs, and in state is worth a half year of unemployment followed by picking up contract work. (In a freak coincidence, she quit from her place of employment about a week after a headhunter representing them called me. Seems they always want someone from our family on the payroll. In another weirdly timed coincidence, my other sister's boyfriend is also being recruited to the same place.) I still have a fair number of good friends in the area, but ya'll are my only Peninsula people.

My major issues are expense, fear of suburbia, and fear of commute.

I currently live in a rapidly gentrifying Castro/Mission-esque neighborhood 3.5 miles from work (12 minute commute over surface streets by car, 45 by bike/light rail/walk combo, which yesterday in the 90plus degree heat wasn't all that bad). My mortgage is under a thousand dollars, and while taxes are going up, they're definitely not bad in the aggregate. I'm no where near underwater, so if we do end up selling we will have something to enter the terrifying real estate market there with. I love where I live, and I'd rather go through the agony of expanding/renovating than moving if we stay here.

Professionally, I think that the SFBA would be a better place for my spouse, but he's developing an international presence where it's not really important for him to be based anywhere in particular in the US. He has a ton of friends in the area, again in SF and the East Bay. For me professionally, I think it's a step up, but I technically won't be a lawyer if I'm offered and accept the position. Certainly it'd be a salary bump as I'm woefully under market, but I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make given the vast cost of living difference.

We're trying to start a family and miscarried twins at nine weeks in late May. Who knows what will happen, but we know we CAN get pregnant, so I'm guessing that within a year we'll probably be expecting again. (It took about 8 months of trying to get pregnant last time around.) Here, we have a ton of family support, which we won't have there unless my sister and her boyfriend move too. My spouse is flexible enough that he could be a stay at home dad for a bit, but we may need the extra income there much more than we would here.

All of this assuming I get an offer that's attractive.

ETA: It is the only place in the country where I don't immediately say "no thank you" when I get a recruiting call. I pay my inactive California bar dues every year just in case. Three or four years ago, I think I would have been much, much more excited about this as I am now, though. I think the kid thing probably plays into that the most, but it also may have to do with how much things have changed on the people front there in the last few years.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 482282)

ok, I didn't scroll back far enough on return from vacation. I'm very sorry to hear about the miscarriage. Man, that sucks.

The way I know to sell the pennisula is not to sell it as suburbia, but as some odd mix of urban, exurban, college town, and tech campus living. It's something I've half-heartedly tried to do periodically, but never successfully. The area also has always struck me as having more diversity with less tension over race and ethnicity than just about anywhere, which is very cool. The other selling point I'd suggest is that it may be easier to raise a kid in a place where you don't have to worry about whether the science textbooks give evolution and creationism equal billing. And don't underestimate the boost SF can give someone working in arts/entertainment.

But, yeah, being near family is pretty great when wee ones come round.

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint (Post 482283)

We have tensions just like every other major American center, but I can tell you that the likelihood of a LA riot situation happening here seems just really low to me. We protest and march and disrupt traffic, and overturn an occasional bus or cop car, but LA just seems much less cohesive a community--probably because it's just so large, and there's lots of influx from all over, and less "homegrown" spirit. Eh, what do I know, Fruitvale happened here, people get shot in SF, Oak, EPA, San Jose all the time.

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 482280)

Allayall know RT lived here for years, right?

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 482280)

Allayall know RT lived here for years, right?

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) (Post 482295)

RT was DisplacedTexan?!? This is the most shocking revelation since ThrashersFan was a sock.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 482300)

A billion people have lived at some point in SF, but I'll bet only a handful of them can name more than five restaurants on the Peninsula.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 482362)

Applebee's, Chili's, Chotchkie's, um . . . OK, you got me.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 482362)

Applebee's, Chili's, Chotchkie's, um . . . OK, you got me.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 482282)

ok, I didn't scroll back far enough on return from vacation. I'm very sorry to hear about the miscarriage. Man, that sucks.

The way I know to sell the pennisula is not to sell it as suburbia, but as some odd mix of urban, exurban, college town, and tech campus living. It's something I've half-heartedly tried to do periodically, but never successfully. The area also has always struck me as having more diversity with less tension over race and ethnicity than just about anywhere, which is very cool. The other selling point I'd suggest is that it may be easier to raise a kid in a place where you don't have to worry about whether the science textbooks give evolution and creationism equal billing (this plays out in a thousand ways - I have stories about relatives dealing with their kids in Southern schools that would offend most 19th century educational standards; I expect Texas would have similar battles). And don't underestimate the boost SF can give someone working in arts/entertainment.

But, yeah, being near family is pretty great when wee ones come round.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 486765)

Wow, this whole discussion was exactly what I came here for. I knew you guys would have some good advice about SF.

I've been going through some major life changes over the last year and the current plan being discussed is a move to SF. Kids are on the horizon, so this discussion has been very helpful.

It's unlikely that we'll have much of a support network if we move, though my SO's sister and BF might make the move with us. We may even be able to convince SO's mom to make the move. My brother and his wife may end up in San Diego in a couple of years, but if we go out there alone, I'm worried it will be tough to have kids there.

Option B is Boston, where my SO is from and where her family currently lives. The problem is I am tired of the weather where I live and going to Boston doesn't give me much of a change.

I also really don't feel like taking the CA Bar. To be honest, I hate being a lawyer and this might be a good excuse to pursue an alternate career path. That said, starting over at this stage in my life in a city where the COL is so high is a little scary.

Anyone have experience living north of SF proper? What's on the other side of that big red bridge, anyway? All comments, including snarky ones, are appreciated. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint (Post 486766)

North of the Golden Gate Bridge? Immediately to the North are yachts, mansions and wine country, and then north of that are cows.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 486785)

Yeah, like Sausalito and San Rafael? What about Richmond?

I have spent time in SF, but always downtown. I know next to nothing about the rest of the bay area. I just know the city itself is amazing. My SO is in the wine industry, so there's that, too...

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 486765)

Anyone have experience living north of SF proper? What's on the other side of that big red bridge, anyway? All comments, including snarky ones, are appreciated. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 486930)

(1) You don’t have to be from Marin to be a douchebag, but it helps.

(2) Napa County is a small fuckin' town in which to do legal work. I’m sure the QOL doesn't suck, but don’t kid yourself — 95% of the wine business is straight-up agriculture. It’s not glamorous. All the issues are about farm labor and where you store the shit that smells.

(3) Santa Rosa is a real city with real businesses, and it will probably grow. Find a job there and you’re going to be okay. Live there and think you’ll commute to the City? Dream on. Misery. Petaluma is probably an even better place to live, but same essential problem. Sonoma County is a good place to be rich, but so's everyplace.

(4) I’m the guy who says you should have your kids within driving distance of your parents or hers, and a set of cousins if possible. Life is easier if you have a support system you don’t have to pay taxes on.

Originally Posted by Flinty_McFlint (Post 486766)

North of the Golden Gate Bridge? Immediately to the North are yachts, mansions and wine country, and then north of that are cows.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 486938)

I once dated a chick who grew up north of the cows. North of the cows are Redwoods and really good pot. There may be more cows, too, but once you're on the pot, you tend to notice the Redwoods more. I mean, that's what she told me. I only get high on life and America.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 486939)

I've quoted this so that everyone can better understand why it is so easy for me to win "most helpful" year after year.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 486956)

Because we're all stoned?

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 486933)

He said his SO is in the wine business. Isn't the right answer here for him to be a gentlemen lawyer/farmer somewhere in wine country, hang with the rich folks in their mansions and yachts north of the bridge, and show up in SF every now and then for some culture?

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 486765)

Wow, this whole discussion was exactly what I came here for. I knew you guys would have some good advice about SF.

I've been going through some major life changes over the last year and the current plan being discussed is a move to SF. Kids are on the horizon, so this discussion has been very helpful.

It's unlikely that we'll have much of a support network if we move, though my SO's sister and BF might make the move with us. We may even be able to convince SO's mom to make the move. My brother and his wife may end up in San Diego in a couple of years, but if we go out there alone, I'm worried it will be tough to have kids there.

Option B is Boston, where my SO is from and where her family currently lives. The problem is I am tired of the weather where I live and going to Boston doesn't give me much of a change.

I also really don't feel like taking the CA Bar. To be honest, I hate being a lawyer and this might be a good excuse to pursue an alternate career path. That said, starting over at this stage in my life in a city where the COL is so high is a little scary.

Anyone have experience living north of SF proper? What's on the other side of that big red bridge, anyway? All comments, including snarky ones, are appreciated. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 486963)

(1) "I’m in the wine business (East Coast)" = "I buy cases and sell bottles." "I’m in the wine business (West Coast)" = "I buy harvests and sell grapes" or "I buy grapes and sell cases."

(2) I’d love to be a gentleman farmer. But these days to get there you have to pay your dues. Napa and Sonoma are lousy with law practice money; unless MR has serious bank, there’s no room at that baccarat table anymore.

(3) You know a good way to make a small fortune in the wine game? Start with a large one.

It’s probably a good gig if he can get it, but can he get it?

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 486963)

(1) "I’m in the wine business (East Coast)" = "I buy cases and sell bottles." "I’m in the wine business (West Coast)" = "I buy harvests and sell grapes" or "I buy grapes and sell cases."

(2) I’d love to be a gentleman farmer. But these days to get there you have to pay your dues. Napa and Sonoma are lousy with law practice money; unless MR has serious bank, there’s no room at that baccarat table anymore.

(3) You know a good way to make a small fortune in the wine game? Start with a large one.

It’s probably a good gig if he can get it, but can he get it?

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 486967)

MR, after you and your SO pick up that Vineyard, remember, I'm the one who believed in you, I'm the one who didn't think you'd end up in some dead-end urban law firm sucking up to the plushbottoms to eke out a lousy few hundred grand a year.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 486765)

Wow, this whole discussion was exactly what I came here for. I knew you guys would have some good advice about SF.

I've been going through some major life changes over the last year and the current plan being discussed is a move to SF. Kids are on the horizon, so this discussion has been very helpful.

It's unlikely that we'll have much of a support network if we move, though my SO's sister and BF might make the move with us. We may even be able to convince SO's mom to make the move. My brother and his wife may end up in San Diego in a couple of years, but if we go out there alone, I'm worried it will be tough to have kids there.

Option B is Boston, where my SO is from and where her family currently lives.

Anyone have experience living north of SF proper? What's on the other side of that big red bridge, anyway? All comments, including snarky ones, are appreciated. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 487060)

Honestly, I'm not taking another bar exam, so I may not even BE a lawyer if we move to CA, unless I can get an in-house gig where they really don't care if I'm licensed in CA.

Maybe I'll work for some wine compliance company? Maybe I'll see if Gallo is hiring for their legal department? Maybe I'll take a harvest intern job and get paid jack shit and chase my dream of becoming a winemaker? Who knows? I could live in a tent and be happy at this point, so long as I don't have to write another fucking motion, draft another buy-sell, or revise another purchase agreement.

Long story short, I'm about done being a lawyer. It was fun while it lasted.

Wait, no it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 487060)

Maybe I'll work for some wine compliance company? Maybe I'll see if Gallo is hiring for their legal department? Maybe I'll take a harvest intern job and get paid jack shit and chase my dream of becoming a winemaker?

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 487062)

Gallo's in Modesto. FUCK NO.

I swear, if there’s anything I’ve learned, it’s that liking the product of a company or industry is poorly correlated with liking being employed by said company or industry. I’ve known too many people who were fooled into wasting years of their life at Apple to fall for that shit.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 487100)

Didn't know they were in Modesto. O-o

And who says I like Gallo? To be completely honest, California wines, especially mass produced plonk like Gallo puts out, are not my thing. I find OR and WA wines much more balanced.

Shit, maybe Portland is the answer? No bar exam, 1 hour from Willamette Valley, 4 hours from Walla Walla, 1 hour from the beach, 1 hour from the mountains...

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 487100)

Didn't know they were in Modesto. O-o

And who says I like Gallo? To be completely honest, California wines, especially mass produced plonk like Gallo puts out, are not my thing. I find OR and WA wines much more balanced.

Shit, maybe Portland is the answer? No bar exam, 1 hour from Willamette Valley, 4 hours from Walla Walla, 1 hour from the beach, 1 hour from the mountains...

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 487101)

no bar, really? I thought everything in Portland was geared to discourage anyone else from moving there.

Originally Posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck (Post 487060)

Honestly, I'm not taking another bar exam, so I may not even BE a lawyer if we move to CA, unless I can get an in-house gig where they really don't care if I'm licensed in CA.

Maybe I'll work for some wine compliance company? Maybe I'll see if Gallo is hiring for their legal department? Maybe I'll take a harvest intern job and get paid jack shit and chase my dream of becoming a winemaker? Who knows? I could live in a tent and be happy at this point, so long as I don't have to write another fucking motion, draft another buy-sell, or revise another purchase agreement.

Long story short, I'm about done being a lawyer. It was fun while it lasted.

Wait, no it wasn't.

Originally Posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone (Post 487103)

Pretty much taking the "you give us reciprocity, we'll give you reciprocity" approach.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 487105)

In other words, "reciprocity."

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 487101)

no bar, really? I thought everything in Portland was geared to discourage anyone else from moving there.

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch (Post 487105)

In other words, "reciprocity."

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 487106)

And vice versa.