Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You can't read, can you? I stopped using the word "racist." I asked you a question that didn't use the word. Without using the word "racist," just answer what I asked you: Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Preet Bharara interview:

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I can’t say just about everyone is involved in systemic discrimination. There’s no way to make that leap. Everyone is a huge group. We could find a small percentage of everyone is responsible. We could find roughly half of everyone is responsible.

I’m avoiding using involved because that’s a broad term that could be used to assert everyone within the system is “involved” in discrimination simply because they deal with or work within the system. Using that measure, the entire population of the world from countries which deal with the US is involved in systemic discrimination.

I am comfortable stating that a significant portion of the US population is responsible for perpetuating systemic discrimination. I think a fair reading of available facts and data allows that. How significant? I don’t know. That’s the argument of degree I previously referenced.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

So now you are that much closer to understanding. You asked how the broad definition of racism could be useful. Here's the answer. We live in a racist society. Pretty much everyone in that society, without regard to individual views and attitudes, is involved in some way in perpetuating that racism. The broad definition of "racist" captures this, at the cost of blurring distinctions between individual attitudes that you find really important. In particular, you think it's really important to distinguish between people who are consciously and intentionally bigoted, and everyone else.

I don't disagree that your distinction has some value, but I don't think it has as much value as you do. (Partly because the word "bigot" has the meaning you want for "racist.") And you don't seem to have any other word to use to capture that sense in which everyone is complicit.

I will say this: If everyone is a "racist" then calling someone a "racist" becomes tautological, not particularly descriptive. That supports an intuition that the narrower sense of the word is more useful. On the other hand, using "racist" to describe actions or things or institutions that fit the broader sense is quite valuable, because that stuff is all around us and there really isn't another good way to say that. So that is very descriptive. Of course, if one isn't really concerned at all with that sort of thing, one doesn't need a word for it. Eskimos had lots of words for snow, but none for structured derivatives, or so I've heard.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don’t disagree the broad definition seems necessary. But I do not think it is the proper expression of what you’re describing. Systemic racism is a different animal than individual racism. You and I and everyone else in this country live within a racist system. That system is filled with structures which are designed to and in fact perpetuate racism. The same cannot be said of every person or just about every person living within that system. Each person must be assessed individually.

We can say, for example, the US justice system is a racist system. But we cannot extrapolate from there that all justice systems are racist. And that is comparing apples to apples. To extrapolate from the fact that the US justice system is racist, or even that numerous US institutions are racist, and therefore all or nearly all US citizens are racist is comparing apples and grains of sand. The system is not the individual any more than the individual is the system. (This is one of the axioms that has kept us from war with Iran, a country of diverse people with diverse views run by an indefensible system.)

I don’t think any fair person can or should label all or most of the citizens of a nation with a description that fits its institutions generally. And I also do not think it needs to be done. It’s quite enough, and effective, to state that a society is run by racist systems decent men would seek to fix. Shaming individuals as racists using a definition that only fits systems will not cure the apathy this device seeks to eradicate.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't think anyone said the point is to shame everyone, but if the utmost concern is to avoid making anyone uncomfortable, what you say makes total sense.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Then why use the accusation on an individual level when it doesn’t fit?

The utmost concern is paring racism as effectively as possible. Using terms where they don’t fit and appear to used disingenuously is the opposite of effective.

It’s been argued Trump is largely a reaction to political correctness. I don’t agree, but if we assume I’m wrong and that’s right, why would one double down on using terms in a manner that invites such backlash where he could easily use accurate, factual statements which cannot be refuted to make his claims?

Post not about racism
 

More, though not much, about Wilkie Farr's cheater - https://cornellsun.com/2019/03/13/go...ed-with-fraud/

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Because it isn't an "accusation."

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

If you assume that the word means only what you say, then that question makes sense. For just a second, try to pretend that the word means what others have suggested, in which case your question is incoherent.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Or try this for fun. When I use the word "racist," assume that I am using a different word "rracist," which includes the meaning you ascribe to "racist" but also has the broader meaning I've suggested. Spelled the same because I forgot the second "r" but otherwise a different word meaning what you think "racist" doesn't mean. Try that and let's see how it works.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Are yo suggesting he's some kind of rrascist?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think this is a beautiful post and an excellent idea. I will try to employ it when it comes to my own colorism.

And I'm very sorry to hear about your son's addiction. I hope both he and the family find the strength to get through it.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm going to try again, because I think you're making progress.

After reading your analysis, I think you need to add another category.

1. Institutional Racism
2. Intentionally Evil Personal Racism
3. Lower Level Racism

I think you have moved away from only acknowledging Intentionally Evil Personal Racism, which I appreciate, but you're throwing everything else into category 1. And I don't think you're wrong to say that people need to learn about how Institutional Racism is structural, permeates society, and contributes to the success of some to the active detriment of others.

So, moving on...if you acknowledge unconscious and confirmation-type biases exist (and I think they often contribute to the perpetuation of Institutional Racism even though they aren't the only factors), you're only a step away from acknowledging the grey area between Intentionally Evil Personal Racism and the state of having zero racism whatsoever (which I think you think is colorblindness, even though it is not--but let's not deal with that here).

Given the society in which we live and the value inherent in one's skin in this country, I don't think anyone is free from some level of racism. Whether you feel uncomfortable when you see a dark-skinned man walking your way or your prefer women or men with European features, we all carry it. We just carry it at different levels. Carrying it doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. Recognizing and actually acknowledging that it exists in you is what is almost impossible. And White Fragility addresses that issue and I think Hank's post does as well.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This is your major problem. If you can't hear someone when they say something you've done is racist and all you hear is someone calling you a racist and thus, a bad person, you have taken a word that has a complex meaning and rendered it useless. If (for one example), when it comes to black women, you think only like light-skinned black women with European features are attractive, that is objectively racist. I should be able to say that to you without you shutting down and telling me how you can't control who you're attracted to or that you have black friends or that race never entered into your head or that you can't be racist because you had a black girlfriend. The fact that you have been conditioned to prefer a European beauty ideal doesn't make you Steve King. But it is indeed racist.

Again, this paragraph shows that you. do. not. listen.

The concept of White Fragility isn't meant to be a fucking insult. It means when it comes to this specific topic, because applying the term "racism" to any of your actions carries with it the idea that you are a bad person, you no longer listen to why whatever action at issue is wrong or hurtful (even if it is what I referred to in the previous email as Low Level Racism). Your sole focus is proving that you are not a bad person. And since we all have to deal with that, we never get back to why that initial action is wrong and how you can correct it.

I would like to explain to people I've come across who have said, "She's cute for a black girl," why that is racist. It's clearly not the same as saying, "Niggers disgust me." But if I can't even talk to them about the former they are fucking fragile--meaning, their feelings take over a conversation in which they can be educated. That's not meant to be an insult.

TM