Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You quibble at the margins.

Read it. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-the-grave/amp

Then read this. https://web.archive.org/web/20190501...atform/587125/

Look. This debate was ended years ago, before it started. I think the powers that be which countenance some call out and boycott culture understand a sad truth of humanity, proven by numerous examples: Mobs of the common require an occasional human sacrifice.

I see the wisdom in placating. But aren’t we better than this? Than “gotcha” punditry, than reveling in bringing down our betters? Isn’t that the currency of Trump Nation?

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You’ll look long for counterparties or even a market.

I’ve been told by jurors I don’t relate or seem to believe what I was selling. I took that as both a compliment and proof I still had a soul. If I connected with those people... I mean, how does one get in the mind of those people?

When I’ve won money, I was happy about the money. But it’s always snake oil. You have to play to at least two idiots on the panel to get all the votes needed. It’s a serious skill. Pre-closing Whip-its would have been a good idea.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

The hypothetical Flower will ignore what the real Sebastian says because Sebastian is the actually one who is being the wannabe-autocrat, telling the hypothetical me what I can or cannot protest. AND, he's being the whiniest of little fucking bitches about it. The idea that he is advocating mob action to shame the hypothetical Flower for trying to incite mob action to shame Maher is yet another hypocrisy the real Sebastian is completely unable to understand, I'm guessing because of some narcissism disorder. Just as as the obvious truth of your last statement will be completely lost on the real Sebastian. And if there is one thing the hypothetical Maher-hating Flower will not stand for, it is a hypocritical and illogical, wannabe-autocrat, whiny little bitch.

As for Maher, I actually don't have much of an opinion on him. But I did look up his anti-vaxxer views after you mentioned them. And the fact that this guy bases his whole livelihood on being the voice of reason while at the same time espousing anti-vaxxer views makes me think he is a delusional jackhole whose hypocritical and irreconcilable inconsistencies are completely swallowed up by his delusional belief about his own unassailable wisdom. Which, now that I mention it, explains why Sebastian loves him so much, as that pretty much sums up every post that Sebastian writes.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

i am sure you didn’t know, but the Moth is routinely defined as “the epicenter of competitive narcissism.” I don’t mind your hypo self attacking Maher. I mind your real self attacking narcissists. And I’m going to protest and ask RT to ban you for these attacks.

I assume you are okay with my speech?

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

This isn’t an example of that with which any free speech advocate should be concerned. This is exactly what can be viewed as the ramblings of one’s spouse’s hair dresser, on a meth binge, and ignored.

“Thank you. I’m not familiar with the candidate. I wandered in from the neighboring Whole Foods, recognized someone and was told there were free hors d’oevres. Way to go on your commitment to... that cause.”

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Do you realize that your main strategy for criticizing a post it to analogize the poster to a ditz with a stereotypically woman-occupied job that you think is less statusy than the job you have? You have used hairdresser, yoga teacher, pilates teacher. I feel like there are some deep cracks of insecurity underneath your sociopathic narcissism. I would suggest therapy, but in your world, that is probably something that only liberal housewives need.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

This notion narcissism is an evil is misplaced. Most narcissists are charming. They’ll get you a drink, require little in depth of conversation. This is hardly the person with whom to do battle.

The polite and mannered narcissist is an under-appreciated form of social grease. Moves things along.

I think anyone ripping narcissists is bigoted. I’d demand justice for this. But I traded interest in that for masturbation years ago. Much more productive.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Try the prosciutto with melon. You need some protein.

And I liken you to frivolous people not because of some feminine characteristic. I’d never insult women in that fashion. I liken you to those professions because you sound like one of those people, male or female. You’re frivolous.

I could liken you to any moron (pick a profession) with the politics and powers of perception of a sixth grader. You’re insipid.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Don't worry. Everyone here knows you're a man lawyer. This is your safe space.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You protest a little too much to be convincing. But what do I know? I'm like a chick's hairdresser who just wandered out of the grocery store after doing the shopping for her family.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Cryptic’s tough. But I’m with you. You can do it (Rob Schneider, or Adam Sandler affectation here... Wait. They’re the same person.)

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Then for god’s sake, try the pork dumplings!

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Well, before you edited this post, the "moron" professions you picked were plumber and computer repairmen, which I think you chose because you wanted to pick some stereotypically male professions that you believe were still less statusy than your job.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

No. I picked those as the sort you’d associate with being a boorish male. Then I realized this is where you’d go with that, as a Pavlovian sort.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Wrong four years to be saying this.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Wrong eight if you play to Flower as the winning voter demographic.

Biden might not be the winner. A progressive might work. But it has to be an adult.

Buttigieg handled that press conference perfectly. When a smart guy gets shit from idiots in the media, and Biden has to weather the nonsense demands for apology of Booker and Harris (which bit both of them in the ass), you’re walking into the circular firing squad about which Obama warned.

And for fuck’s sake, do not think Mueller’s testimony is going to be a game changer. Nadler’s an idiot. Follow Pelosi on this. Impeachment is Trump’s wet dream. (Ewwww.)

Biden’s refusal to apologize for that for which he owes no apology is making him look like the adult, the person of spine. That’s the anti-Trump needed. Not some fucking whiners’ hero telling everyone how awful and mean Trump is. We fucking know that. Provide a street fighter this race, or go home.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

I don't think anyone is excited about Biden, so I think he will fade. And I don't really think it matters that much who the Democratic nominee is, because the next election is about Trump. I don't think there are many swing voters who care that much about the difference between a moderate and a progressive Democrat. Democrats spend too much worry about what other people will think.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Ha ha! For sure! I'm know that's why you really edited your response, and not because your original response made you seem even more imperious and self-important. Sorry, just ignore me, I'm like a stewardess with her period after a botched manicure. I know that guys like you don't even see gender. Like a few weeks ago, when you critiqued Thurgreed's argument by calling him a hysterical Sally on her fifth glass of Chardonnay. No weird gender shit going on there. Your response would have been just as withering if you called him and angry Harry after his fifth Bud Light.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You obviously need to watch more strong free speech advocates who want to suppress any criticism of themselves to understand what a real man is. This may help you with your manhood issues.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

It almost goes without saying to note you’re using a straw man. It’s kind of your thing.

But here goes, anyway... I am not seeking to suppress any speech. I am advocating ignoring, mocking, and/or maligning boycotters and Twitter mobs. They shall remain free to say whatever they like, but in keeping with free speech principles, the marketplace ideas (we reasonable, normal people who do not emotionally flip out at that which offends us) will dispense with them.

It’s kind of going that way already, as these collective flip outs are so frequent that the silent majority of sane people in the country ignores them.

If that’s imperious, I’m happily imperious. I’m also sad that we’ve reached a point where to say, “Oh god, someone tell these officious idiots to stop flipping out” is considered imperious. It seems more of what in the past would be called a sensible reaction to embarrassing, overreacting behavior.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Of course you know no swing voters, and have even stated there is no such thing. but the bigger problem for you (us actually) is to get the fucking Democrats in line to support the Dem candidate against Trump no matter where the person falls on the Dem spectrum.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Can you explain why Maher saying something stupid is part of the marketplace of ideas and an angry reaction by a number of people large enough to influence his employers is somehow outside the marketplace of ideas? Aren't they just saying, "We have listened to your idea and we think it is overwhelmingly stupid"?

Or do you picture the marketplace of ideas as an actual Greek amphitheater in which everyone gets to stand up and advocate for their ideas? And those with the best ideas get a TV show?

TM

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You really don't get it. It was one thing for the colonists to politely petition the King one the tea tax, but another altogether for them not to try to deplatform King George by not drinking the tea.

And it's all gone downhill from there.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

I can not watch Maher. In fact, I can cancel HBO. I just can't tie the two, or threaten the second if they don't take Maher off. I got all that, and since I don't want to be low, I will behave accordingly.

My fear though, is what if an HBO rep calls me and asks why I cancelled?

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Or when Rosa Parks and her angry mob of officious idiots tried to deplatform the Montgomery, Alabama city buses? Embarrassing. Low.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Not the sort of thing true heros like Maher and Harris would do.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

It's clear that it would be very low to gloat over the demise of NRATV and Dana Loesch.

So can I just ask for a moment of silence on the board while we offer them our thoughts and prayers?

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Of course there are some, but....

...exactly as you say, the bigger issue is to make sure that Democrats support and turn out for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is.

So long as a Democratic President is at least as progressive as the last Senator needed to get legislation through the Senate (and I am going to assume that will be the 50th Senator, not the 60th, because I think the filibuster is doomed), that 50th Senator is going to be the curb on getting progressive legislation passed, not the President.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

I was wondering how long this comment would take. You've held out longer than expected.

If you don't see the difference between a boycott of segregationist establishments and services and a Twitter mob crying for the head of a comedian or pundit who "dead named" a transgender person, or told a joke insensitive to the plight of ancient Denisovans, you should work for the White House's liaison to NASA. They need help recruiting people to go to Mars... or maybe it's the Moon. Whatever. Same thing.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Shhh, nobody was talking to you.

Anyway, if you don't see the difference between an earnest debate and a joke about the word "deplatforming" (I'd actually never heard that stupid word before a couple of days ago here), I think you may want to consider focusing more on Indica strains, and leaving the Sativa for the weekends, because you are one edgy motherfucker.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

An angry reaction by a number of people which gets the attention of HBO execs and causes them to fire Maher is fine. That's an organic process ending in a business decision. An angry reaction by a number of people demanding that Maher lose his job and pushing for that result is not within the marketplace of ideas. It's not a response to an idea at all. I'll explain by example:

Maher made a dumb racially insensitive joke a few months ago.

In response, normal people said, "That was a foul. Bad joke, bad idea. Bad Bill. Don't do something like that again." Other normal people, like Ice Cube, came on his show and took him to the woodshed about his bad judgment in making the joke.

That is the marketplace of ideas at work. Maher offered an idea -- that it was okay for him to make that joke, and that the joke was funny. The marketplace said, "Nope, Bill. That joke is not okay. It sucks and it's offensive. Bad fucking idea."

Bill lost. If his idea, or his joke, were a company, it'd have failed. If it were a stock, it'd have gone to zero. And consequently, everyone learned a lesson about boundaries. And Maher, whose program showcases important issues and important guests (climate change almost every week, to name one of many) remains a source of useful and enlightening entertainment (for a TV crowd).

But... If the Twitter mob had its way, much as dipshit right wingers threw Maher off of HBO in 2001 for telling the truth (that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards by any stretch of the imagination), Maher and his show would have ended. This is not a competition of ideas. This is retribution. It's childish anger -- and it's the low seeking to take down their betters. It's a bully with a Twitter feed seeking to preclude the competition of Maher's dumb joke and the public's view of it within the marketplace of ideas. It's seeking to attack not the idea, but the source of it. It's also weak. It suggests that the idea might not fail or be sufficiently rejected on its own.

I find many opinions and ideas repugnant and stupid and offensive. But should I seek to silence their speakers in reply to them? Or should I seek to express why and how such views are flawed and stupid and offensive? Clearly, for the thinking person, the smart and evolved person, the latter is the preferred course. (It's not even up for debate.)

If you say something I don't like, I've the right to tell your boss to fire you for it. But I would hope, and I trust this would be the case, that your boss would say, "Fuck you" to me in response. But as you correctly note, if the mob gets large enough and loud enough, in many instances, a board will fire the offending comic or pundit regardless of whether the mob has asked for that redress. That's unfortunate. But I don't blame the mob for that. Should the mob demand the offender be fired, however, fuck that mob. Fuck that deeply un-American mob and its childish, thuggish behavior. And yes, they are low. He who defies the spirit of free speech in that regard - and that defies it - is low.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

So we're back to "Sebby ranks the oppressions" then?

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

If you don't see the ironic use of "pilates instructor" or "hairdresser," I'd advocate some DMT. See the mechanical elves... let them carry you away from angry-and-righteous-pants land.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

You ask for the six months free trial is what you do there.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Wait, I thought Maher was mostly an Islamiphobe, a misogynist, an anti-Science moron, a racist, and a general asshole. What did he do to the Denisovans? Now I'm concerned.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

https://media1.giphy.com/media/UONBs...&rid=200w.webp

https://media0.giphy.com/media/1rLDT...a&rid=200.webp

https://media0.giphy.com/media/ejP8z...e&rid=200.webp

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

Dude, you already fucked up by telling us you're going to cancel HBO. I'm going to do it too now, which makes you the head of a boycott mob.

TM

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

I really do not think you understand that you are personally deciding where the you-should-get-fired line is. You don't think that particular joke rises to the level of a fire-able offense. Obviously there are awful, terrible jokes that would (in your mind). I'm not going to give you an example because I assume you're smart enough to understand the point I'm making.

But even with your example, HBO engaged in an analysis based on the number of people who took offense to what Maher said. I guarantee you that if there were significantly more people who thought that the joke was so offensive that he should have lost his job, he would have lost his job. Period.

I think we can agree that there are instances when people get carried away. I don't agree that shouting down speakers who have been invited to share their ideas (even if they're awful) makes sense. It (kinda) happened at my alma mater to a guy who was a former white supremacist who was invited to talk about the mindset of white supremacists and what made him change (as well as his work fighting against hate). He was allowed to speak, but students held protest signs during the entire talk because they didn't want the school rewarding him or some shit.

On campuses, the issue is that a small group of people has an outsized voice and can ruin it for a large group of people. I think you're conflating that with your constant "twitter mob" references. The two things do not work the same way. If someone says something truly offensive, I guarantee you networks, shows, advertisers (i) make a determination whether they want to be associated with someone like that and/or (ii) perform an analysis of how many people are expressing anger and whether the threat of the loss of their business is worth a continued association. What amazes me is that you do not think that all of that falls within the marketplace of ideas.

Having a TV show is great. It is a tremendously rewarding job in terms of fame and fortune. You are not guaranteed a right to keep it. You either figure out how to maintain it or you don't. I see no difference between being completely unfunny such that you lose your show over lack of interest or being so offensive that you lose your show over outrage. The fact that you are so worked up about the very few instances of people dealing with the consequences of their own words and inability to understand how not to be overly offensive is absolutely puzzling.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

So, the President was accused of rape (again) and it's sorta not a thing. That's depressing.

Re: Turd in the Bowl
 

I’m the top of the low? Deal!!!