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-   -   We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about! (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=824)

Cletus Miller 02-13-2009 04:48 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381547)

Where does it discuss the voters actually registered and eligible to vote? Is there a second page I missed?

1436 02-13-2009 04:51 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381547)

Broken link?

I can't find the part in the article where they talk about fraudulent votes.

(Now I know how Hank felt about the bomb/rocket misunderstanding! I'm sorry if I made rude comments at the time.)

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 05:05 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381547)

Exactly as I said. Lots of bogus voter registrations, no evidence of people voting who shouldn't be.

Here's what your link says:

Quote:

What is ACORN?

The Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) is a community-based organization that advocates for low and moderate income families founded in 1970 by Wade Rathke and Gary Delgado. Rathke, one of the most powerful hard-Left activists in America, is a former member of a radical 1960s group, the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS). The Weathermen terrorist group split off from the SDS in 1969. ACORN says its priorities include better housing and wages for the poor, more community development investment from banks and governments, and better public schools.

ACORN is also known for its voter registration efforts.

This year alone ACORN has registered 1,315,037 voters.

Although the organization prides itself for its registration efforts, it also has a long history of scandal. In the state of Missouri in 1986, 12 ACORN members were convicted of voter fraud. But that case was not an isolated incident in the state. In December 2004, in St. Louis, six volunteers pleaded guilty of dozens of election law violations for filling out registration cards with names of dead people and other bogus information. Authorities launched an earlier investigation after noticing that among the new voters was longtime St. Louis alderman Albert “Red” Villa, who died in 1990. The volunteers worked for “Operation Big Vote” — a branch of ACORN — in St. Louis.

On February 10, 2005, Nonaresa Montgomery, a paid worker who ran Operation Big Vote during the run-up to the 2001 mayoral primary, was found guilty of vote fraud. Montgomery hired about 30 workers to do fraudulent voter-registration canvassing. Instead of knocking on doors, the volunteers sat at a St. Louis fast food restaurant and wrote out names and information from an outdated voter list. About 1,500 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in.

In October 2006, St. Louis election officials discovered at least 1,492 “potentially fraudulent” voter registration cards. They were all turned in by ACORN volunteers.

In November 2006, 20,000 to 35,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials in Missouri. Most all of these were from St. Louis and Kansas City areas, where ACORN purportedly sought to help empower the “disenfranchised” minorities living there. But the ACORN workers weren’t just told to register new voters. The workers admitted on camera that they were coached to tell registrants to vote for Democrat Claire McCaskill.

In 2007, in Kansas City, Missouri, four ACORN employees were indicted for fraud. In April of this year eight ACORN employees in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting bogus voter registrations.

And, that was just Missouri.

This year there have been several accusations of fraud against ACORN. Over a dozen states are investigating the organization already. Here is a complete list of the ongoing investigations:

North Carolina — State Board of Elections officials have found at least 100 voter registration forms with the same names over and over again. The forms were turned in by ACORN. Officials sent about 30 applications to the state Board of Elections for possible fraud investigation.

Ohio — The New York Post reported that a Cleveland man said he was given cash and cigarettes by aggressive ACORN activists in exchange for registering an astonishing 72 times. The complaints have sparked an investigation by election officials into the organization, whose political wing has supported Barack Obama. Witnesses have already been subpoenaed to testify against the organization.

Nevada — Authorities raided the headquarters of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now on Tuesday October 7, 2008, after a month-long investigation. The fraudulent voter registrations included the Dallas Cowboys starting line-up.

Indiana — More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana’s Lake County filled out by ACORN employees turned out to be bogus. Officials also stopped processing a stack of about 5,000 applications delivered just before the October 6 registration deadline after the first 2,100 turned out to be phony.

Connecticut — Officials are looking into a complaint alleging ACORN submitted fraudulent voter registration cards in Bridgeport. In one instance, an official said a card was filled out for a 7-year-old girl, whose age was listed as 27. 8,000 cards were submitted in Bridgeport.

Missouri — The Kansas City election board is reporting 100 duplicate applications and 280 with fake information. Acorn officials agreed that at least 4% of their registrations were bogus. Governor Matt Blunt condemned the attempts by ACORN to commit voter fraud.

Pennsylvania — Officials are investigating suspicious or incomplete registration forms submitted by ACORN. 252,595 voter registrations were submitted in Philadelphia. Remarkably, 57,435 were rejected — most of them submitted by ACORN.

Wisconsin — In Milwaukee ACORN improperly used felons as registration workers. Additionally, its workers are among 49 cases of bad registrations sent to authorities for possible charges, as first reported by the Journal Sentinel.

Florida — The Pinellas County Elections supervisor says his office has received around 35 voter registrations that appear to be bogus. There is also a question of 30,000 felons who are registered illegally to vote. Their connections with ACORN are not yet clear.

Texas — Of the 30,000 registration cards ACORN turned in, Harris County tax assessor Paul Bettencourt says just more than 20,000 are valid. And just look at some of the places ACORN was finding those voters. A church just next door is the address for around 150 people. More than 250 people claim a homeless outreach center as their home address. Some listed a county mental health facility as their home and one person even wrote down the Harris County jail at the sheriff’s office.

Michigan — ACORN in Detroit is being investigated after several municipal clerks reported fraudulent and duplicate voter registration applications coming through. The clerk interviewed said the fraud appears to be widespread.

New Mexico – The Bernalillo County clerk has notified prosecutors that some 1,100 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in by ACORN.

That’s not all. So far this year at least 14 states have started investigations against ACORN. Talk about a culture of corruption. It is so bad that Representatives of Congress have asked for the Justice Department to investigate, and GOP presidential candidate John McCain is bringing it up in his stump speeches. The Obama camp is stealthily altering its “Fight the Smears” website to distance themselves from the organization — quite a challenge considering how close their candidate’s association has been with the group.

The liberal vs. conservative, voter fraud vs. voter intimidation debate will no doubt continue after this election. But this year, with the assistance of scandal-plagued ACORN, it appears that — so far — the voter fraud side is winning.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletus Miller (Post 381555)
Where does it discuss the voters actually registered and eligible to vote? Is there a second page I missed?

Sadly, no. But Slave is doing his part to boost Pajamas Media's ad revenues. Lord knows they need it.

Replaced_Texan 02-13-2009 05:09 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381561)
Sadly, no. But Slave is doing his part to boost Pajamas Media's ad revenues. Lord knows they need it.

Wasn't Joe the Plumber going to pull them out?

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 05:12 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Yglesias with a good point about the uselessness of the entire Senate GOP w/r/t the harmful modifications made to the stimulus bill by the centrists:

Quote:

There are dozens of Senate conservatives who could have said “I don’t believe in the idea of Keynesian stimulus, but as long as you guys want to do a Keynesian stimulus you may as well do one properly, thus even though I’ll vote ‘no’ on the final bill I’ll agree to vote ‘yes’ on cloture if you undue the damage done by Sens. Specter, Collins, Snowe, and Nelson.”

Adder 02-13-2009 05:23 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381563)
Yglesias with a good point about the uselessness of the entire Senate GOP w/r/t the harmful modifications made to the stimulus bill by the centrists:

This is silly too.

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:38 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381512)

The faster the better. The GOP opponents are making stuff up about what's in the bill rather than reading it closely, so there's no reason to think that waiting a week will improve the bill, rather than just let the economy deteriorate in the meantime. And "a week"? They've been working on this for a lot longer than that.


Lautenberg is saying no one will have the chance to read the bill. Huh? That's not responsible, and I can't imagine in that context that its not loaded with shit. If I did a deal that a 1000 pages of loan documents and I didn't read it all for content before advising the client, I would feel a sense of malpractice. I guess legislators operate on a higher ethical plane that I can't understand.

Sidd Finch 02-13-2009 05:39 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381561)
Exactly as I said. Lots of bogus voter registrations, no evidence of people voting who shouldn't be.


IIRC, the law -- at least in some states -- requires ACORN to turn in voter registration cards, even if they believe the cards are fake.

If I'm so screamingly bored that I choose to actually confront Slave on the merits, while at the same time delusional enough to believe that the merits matter to him, I'll look for the article I read on this subject.

Sidd Finch 02-13-2009 05:41 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381553)
So Alberto Alesina, Robert Barro, Gary Becker, John Cochrane, Eugene Fama, Robert Lucas, Greg Mankiw, Kevin Murphy, Thomas Sargent, Harald Uhlig, and Luigi Zingales and all the economists that signed this Ad (http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus...o_stimulus.pdf) supported Ron Paul?

You think he would have placed higher.

You're citing the Cato Institute? What, Little Green Footballs didn't have something to add?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:41 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) (Post 381520)
Not sure who's treating, but GGG and Penske should be here.

I'm game, which of us wears the dress?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:43 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381521)

fwiw, can you let him know that I can read 1100 pages in an all-nighter.

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:44 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 381523)
Will Sen. Gillibrand be making an appearance?

In a post-partisan world, you have dibs on Perino, I get first shot at Gillibrand.

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 05:45 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381570)
Lautenberg is saying no one will have the chance to read the bill. Huh? That's not responsible, and I can't imagine in that context that its not loaded with shit. If I did a deal that a 1000 pages of loan documents and I didn't read it all for content before advising the client, I would feel a sense of malpractice. I guess legislators operate on a higher ethical plane that I can't understand.

It's not like this bill appeared out of ether a few days ago. They've been working on it for weeks and weeks. Do you think Lautenberg has ever seen a red-lined document?

taxwonk 02-13-2009 05:46 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381570)
Lautenberg is saying no one will have the chance to read the bill. Huh? That's not responsible, and I can't imagine in that context that its not loaded with shit. If I did a deal that a 1000 pages of loan documents and I didn't read it all for content before advising the client, I would feel a sense of malpractice. I guess legislators operate on a higher ethical plane that I can't understand.

Remember, you're talking about the same basket of assholes who couldn't be bothered to read the PATRIOT Act before voting for it, either. I guess the only real positive difference in this case is that Alberto Gonzales wasn't around to insert provisions granting Dick Cheny the right to dance on the testicles of anyone caught eating halal meats.

Adder 02-13-2009 05:50 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 381577)
Remember, you're talking about the same basket of assholes who couldn't be bothered to read the PATRIOT Act before voting for it, either.

I suspect they like the plausible deniability (even if it makes them look stupid).

SlaveNoMore 02-13-2009 05:51 PM

Re: Really?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381561)
But Slave is doing his part to boost Pajamas Media's ad revenues. Lord knows they need it.

Unlike, say, some media stalwart like the NYT

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 02-13-2009 05:52 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381575)
In a post-partisan world, you have dibs on Perino, I get first shot at Gillibrand.

How come I'm always the wingman?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:55 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381576)
It's not like this bill appeared out of ether a few days ago. They've been working on it for weeks and weeks. Do you think Lautenberg has ever seen a red-lined document?

I am not sure. In a nod towards ageism, I've certainly met attorneys of older ages who seem to have a problem with the concept.

Notwitshtanding that cheap shot at the elderly (hi Wonk!), his statement seems to imply that there is a problem with the lack of reading the final version, or are you inferring it to be laudatory?

eta: also, I have never not read a final version of a document prior to sign off, even if I have read the prior 50 iterations, including redlines, and its not unusual to catch "things" in a penultimate review.

reta: I only speak as a transactional atty. Myabe you all are litigators. I don't know how you roll with final review of pleadings before filing. And. I. don.t want. to.

SlaveNoMore 02-13-2009 05:55 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 381572)
You're citing the Cato Institute? What, Little Green Footballs didn't have something to add?

Defending criminal rackets like ACORN and now mocking think-tanks like Cato.

When did this Board formally become the Democratic Underground... with better spelling?

Tyrone Slothrop 02-13-2009 05:58 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381581)
I am not sure. In a nod towards ageism, I've certainly met attorneys of older ages who seem to have a problem with the concept.

Notwitshtanding that cheap shot at the elderly (hi Wonk!), his statement seems to imply that there is a problem with the lack of reading the final version, or are you inferring it to be laudatory?

eta: also, I have never not read a final version of a document prior to sign off, even if I have read the prior 50 iterations, including redlines, and its not unusual to catch "things" in a penultimate review.

reta: I only speak as a transactional atty. Myabe you all are litigators. I don't know how you roll with final review of pleadings before filing. And. I. don.t want. to.


I imagine that Senators often rely on their staff for such things. If I were a Senator, I'd have reliable staffers go through it.

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:58 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 381577)
Remember, you're talking about the same basket of assholes who couldn't be bothered to read the PATRIOT Act before voting for it, either. I guess the only real positive difference in this case is that Alberto Gonzales wasn't around to insert provisions granting Dick Cheny the right to dance on the testicles of anyone caught eating halal meats.

So, if you're critical of the way the Patriot ACt came into being, why use the similar process to craft this bill? Because its the Ds? And they are all transparently honest statemen? Wasn't Blagojevich a D?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 05:58 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 381578)
I suspect they like the plausible deniability (even if it makes them look stupid).

I can agree with that rationale.

Adder 02-13-2009 06:00 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381581)
I am not sure. In a nod towards ageism, I've certainly met attorneys of older ages who seem to have a problem with the concept.

Notwitshtanding that cheap shot at the elderly (hi Wonk!), his statement seems to imply that there is a problem with the lack of reading the final version, or are you inferring it to be laudatory?

eta: also, I have never not read a final version of a document prior to sign off, even if I have read the prior 50 iterations, including redlines, and its not unusual to catch "things" in a penultimate review.

reta: I only speak as a transactional atty. Myabe you all are litigators. I don't know how you roll with final review of pleadings before filing. And. I. don.t want. to.


You are not a member of congress. I would be surprised if they ever read all of any bill they vote on. They have staff members to do that.

Adder 02-13-2009 06:01 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381582)
Defending criminal rackets like ACORN and now mocking think-tanks like Cato.

When did this Board formally become the Democratic Underground... with better spelling?

You do realize that ACORN does things other than register voters, right?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:05 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 381580)
How come I'm always the wingman?

As with all things that transpire, in whole or part, on the Internets, Wikipedia can inform that query.........

Other responsibilities [of the Wingman] include remembering details (i.e. target's names and personal information) as well as compensating for intoxication in the judgment of the pilot.

Good on ya, mate!

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:05 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381584)
I imagine that Senators often rely on their staff for such things. If I were a Senator, I'd have reliable staffers go through it.

What colour is the skye in your wourld?

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:08 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 381587)
You are not a member of congress. I would be surprised if they ever read all of any bill they vote on. They have staff members to do that.

Indeed, a whole of bevy of just post college grads, poly-sci majors to boot. I'd remember those Hill staffer days fondly, if it wasn't for the partying induced haze on my memoury of those dayze.

You're right, nothing to worry about here. Move along......

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 02-13-2009 06:10 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381590)
As with all things that transpire, in whole or part, on the Internets, Wikipedia can inform that query.........

Other responsibilities [of the Wingman] include remembering details (i.e. target's names and personal information) as well as compensating for intoxication in the judgment of the pilot.

Good on ya, mate!

If Selma Hayek shows, she's mine.

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:12 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 381594)
If Selma Hayek shows, she's mine.

Touché! W-P, P!

SlaveNoMore 02-13-2009 06:22 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 381576)
It's not like this bill appeared out of ether a few days ago. They've been working on it for weeks and weeks. Do you think Lautenberg has ever seen a red-lined document?

Some form of it has been kicking around for 6-7 weeks, I believe. Some pet projects in the Bill have been around for years - just could never pass on their own.

BTW - I find interesting what your boy Kevin Drum wrote in (my favorite mag) Mother Jones back on 12/30/08:

"Hopefully, the days of thousand-page bills coming out of conference and getting sent to the floor within 24 hours died when........Mitch McConnell's party lost control of the Senate. I say, let it stay dead."

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru.../stimulus-bill

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:24 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381596)

That link is blocked by my firewall, can you post the text?

SlaveNoMore 02-13-2009 06:25 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 381588)
You do realize that ACORN does things other than register voters, right?

Indeed. I believe the WSJ once referred them as "shock troops for the AFL-CIO"

Adder 02-13-2009 06:30 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381593)
Indeed, a whole of bevy of just post college grads, poly-sci majors to boot. I'd remember those Hill staffer days fondly, if it wasn't for the partying induced haze on my memoury of those dayze.

You're right, nothing to worry about here. Move along......

I didn't say it was nothing to worry about. I said that is how our government works, frightening though it may be.

Adder 02-13-2009 06:32 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381598)
Indeed. I believe the WSJ once referred them as "shock troops for the AFL-CIO"

You mean they may be communists, Marxists or some other shade of pinkish scoundrels?? Well in that case, indict them wall. They are surely plotting violent overthrough of some government or another.

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:32 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SlaveNoMore (Post 381553)
So Alberto Alesina, Robert Barro, Gary Becker, John Cochrane, Eugene Fama, Robert Lucas, Greg Mankiw, Kevin Murphy, Thomas Sargent, Harald Uhlig, and Luigi Zingales and all the economists that signed this Ad (http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus...o_stimulus.pdf) supported Ron Paul?

You think he would have placed higher.

Will the stimulus actually stimulate? Economists say no

Quote:

"I think (doing) nothing would have been better," said Ed Yardeni, an investment analyst who's usually an optimist, in an interview with McClatchy. He argued that the plan fails to provide the right incentives to spur spending.

"It's unfocused. That is my problem. It is a lot of money for a lot of nickel-and- dime programs. I would have rather had a lot of money for (promoting purchase of) housing and autos . . . .
Quote:

All this is 25 years of government expansion jammed into one bill and sold as stimulus," said Brian Riedl, the director of budget analysis for the Heritage Foundation, a conservative policy research group.

The view wasn't much more supportive on the other side of the political spectrum........
Quote:


"If the choice is between the current bill and an improved bill, I would say wait and improve the bill,"[Martin] Feldstein told CNBC on Wednesday after the compromise was announced. "I am disappointed with the structure of this bill."


Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:33 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 381599)
I didn't say it was nothing to worry about. I said that is how our government works, frightening though it may be.

What happened to hope and change?

Adder 02-13-2009 06:35 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381601)

Edited for accuracy.

Seriously, do you people ever have any interaction with economist or read anything about economists? As a class, they do not agree that the sky is blue, much less about how to stimulate an economy (or more fundamentally whether to stimulate an economy). Trying to present this particular group of people as having a single view on anything is just disingenuous.

Adder 02-13-2009 06:36 PM

Re: We will never agree on this and therefore it is pointless to talk about!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381602)
What happened to hope and change?

That is for the White House. Congress is next to hopeless.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 02-13-2009 06:37 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penske_Account (Post 381601)

McClatchy, huh?

So are you reading the Macon Telegraph, the Biloxi Herald, or just following links from Drudge?

Yes, all those economists. Including Ed Yardeni.

If you can't get a nobel winner, and your only academics are Cato institute "libertarians", go for the financial industry whores!

Penske_Account 02-13-2009 06:46 PM

Re: Ah, Change
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 381604)
Edited for accuracy.

Seriously, do you people ever have any interaction with economist or read anything about economists? As a class, they do not agree that the sky is blue, much less about how to stimulate an economy (or more fundamentally whether to stimulate an economy). Trying to present this particular group of people as having a single view on anything is just disingenuous.

No more disingenuous than pretending that Pelosi and Reid did not act in their typically entrenched partisan hack mode in pushing through what is not the best effourt that Congress could have produced and that the country deserves in this time of crisis. For shame! I wish Obama would have held them to a higher standard, because I know he knows better.


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