LawTalkers - Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 490881)

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If you're working class to middle class, you're not enjoying this economy. If you're in the one half of this country making less than $40k, you're not enjoying this economy.

The overwhelming majority of this country is economically fucked, and pissed.

Bump that $40K to $60K, $75K if you live in a major city and have kids.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 490893)

I know. I didn't want him to think otherwise, which is why I added the parenthical.

TM

Adder doesn't make a lot of good jokes, and you made him feel bad about it. That wasn't nice. It's like if Hank posted something decent, and someone responded that his account must have been hacked.

I have sat back and stayed out of this debate on Islam and Bill Maher so far. Because I believed we are all very intelligent and reasonable people and it would sort itself out quickly and we could all return to decency and common sense. I am very sorry to say I was wrong.

Jew. Muslim. Christian. Same God. Same.Fucking.God.

Anybody wanna call me a Kike? Wanna call Sidd a Wop? And Thurgreed..., well, I won't go there.

But some of you have. You are pointing to the worst in a group of people. A very large group of people. In fact, if you want to talk numbers, the largest group of people in the Whole Fucking World. That's right. There are more Muslims than any other religious adherents, everywhere.

And you are going to paint them all with the same brush as you paint a relatively small group of them in a very small place? Shame on you.

Fucking get your heads right. You're making me sick.

But then, I'm just a Yid. We all know how emotional they get.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Over the years, I have had muslim friends, some very close -- from back when I spent more time doing martial arts than law and family stuff. We chose my son's middle name to honor one of these people (we chose the "Anton" rather than the "Salahuddin-al-Muhammad", it seemed to go better with the first and last name). I've had both traditional muslims and Nation of Islam members (guys who used an "X", one who was even a bodyguard for Farrakhan) refer to me as "family." It was truly something I treasured.

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And yet, and yet. Try talking to one of these guys about the fanatics that abuse their religion, and you got nowhere, or it got ugly. Just try getting someone to say that blowing up a bus full of children was wrong -- just wrong, whatever the motivation or message, whatever the grievances it was intended to address -- and it was awful. I learned to avoid conversations like that.

YMMV. Most of the Muslims with whom I've discussed this stuff readily admit, "Yep... We've got too many nuts in the fold." Then they usually say, "That's why I left the Middle East. It's a shit show."

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Extremists are to Islam what the Tea Party is to the GOP -- they have taken over the conversation and fucked up the brand.

Excellent. Best comment on this yet.

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As for references to "Arabs", Maher's comments are at least sloppy and at worst virulently racist. I don't listen to him enough to have a strong opinion.

Agreed. But it is traditionally a staunchly patriarchal heritage. This is just fact. And for God's sake - would apologists stop making the argument, "Iran has women in government!" Guess what else? It's not an Arab state! Saudi Arabia is an Arab state.

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But to move past Maher specifically for a minute -- there is a distinction, often very difficult to see or to make, between saying something negative about a culture, or the effects that a culture has on people, and defining a people in a racist way. Long ago I had a nasty argument with Ty where we were talking about the conduct of soldiers in the Pacific in WWII, and I made a comment to the effect that Japanese soldiers behaved a certain way due to culture. I didn't see that as racist, he clearly did. Yet I do think that culture has a powerful effect on how people behave, especially insular cultures.

I'd say your position is beyond debate. I see no logical way around it.

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It's a difficult line to see, but it is there. If you believe that someone raised in a purely muslim and Arab world, as that world has existed throughout the recent past, is not "different" in many ways, try discussing their views on women, gays, etc. Does that mean that being born of Arab parents makes you a certain way? No. It means being raised in a particular culture, and taught particular attitudes, affects you.

Man, you're good today. This is also excellent.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 490889)

Try talking to one of these guys about the fanatics that abuse their religion, and you got nowhere, or it got ugly. Just try getting someone to say that blowing up a bus full of children was wrong -- just wrong

Was this pre 9/11? I believe there is a very bright line in how the Arabic people around here feel about attacks on/in Israel compared to attacks on the west, or the ISIS type wars on each other.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 490897)

I have no issue with saying exactly what Maher did to every Muslim I know. I'm a lapsed Catholic. If you tell me my religious heritage is filled with pedophiles, cover-ups of pedophilia, horrendous discrimination against women, and unforgivable policies on birth control which harm the poorest and weakest, I'd say, "Yep. True, true, and-- True!"

Would a reasonable Black person told young black males are disproportionately involved in crime bristle and scream racism? No. He'd say, that's a fact. There are reasons beyond those Black youths' control which contribute to this stat, but it's fact.

Islam has a problem. This is fact. Maher notes as much. Does he go too far? Yep. He's a provocateur. But where a religion is the cause of mass genital mutilations of females, public beheadings, idiotic bloodsheed over the Sunni v. Shia rift, and cartoonists being threatened with death for drawing pictures of a "prophet," there is no unwarranted criticism, or racism, in saying, "Islam, get your house in order."

YMMV. Most of the Muslims with whom I've discussed this stuff readily admit, "Yep... We've got too many nuts in the fold." Then they usually say, "That's why I left the Middle East. It's a shit show."

Excellent. Best comment on this yet.

Agreed. But it is traditionally a staunchly patriarchal heritage. This is just fact. And for God's sake - would apologists stop making the argument, "Iran has women in government!" Guess what else? It's not an Arab state! Saudi Arabia is an Arab state.

I'd say your position is beyond debate. I see no logical way around it.

Man, you're good today. This is also excellent.

Muslims don't blow up buses. People blow up buses. Just like you aren't a pedophile, some bad men who happened to be priests were pedophiles. 3G doesn't need to apologize for terrorists in the MENA any more than you need to apologize for Bishop X liking to suck young boy cock.

I shouldn't have to be explaining this to anybody here.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 490895)

Adder doesn't make a lot of good jokes, and you made him feel bad about it.

I know you're ribbing me, but I figured I'd say this anyway. When you post something about race, joke or not, it often makes me think about something specific--an experience I or someone I know has been through or something I've seen in the news lately that's bothersome--and I kind of go off on a tangent about it. I don't want people thinking that they're constantly offending me. I know talking about race gets touchy, but I would always rather people feel comfortable talking about their opinions and observations than trying to be apologetic, to appease me or to be overly careful about my feelings.

If someone made a joke about me being an angry black man and I said that the joke is kind of tired because it's such a lame stereotype that plays off of the myth that black people are overly sensitive all the time, I'd rather talk about why the stereotype is lame and what the sensitivity may be based on than have someone back off of it because they think I'm offended.

Maybe that's why I like Bill Maher. He seems to prefer to talk about shit that people normally want to steer clear of. Also, he thinks Republicans are either stupid or completely full of shit.

TM

Re: My Fucking God

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Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 490896)

But some of you have. You are pointing to the worst in a group of people. A very large group of people. In fact, if you want to talk numbers, the largest group of people in the Whole Fucking World. That's right. There are more Muslims than any other religious adherents, everywhere.

I don't see this. I don't know what you're talking about.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 490899)

I believe all Sebby was saying is that the people best positioned to stop Priests from doing more sex crimes is the Priesthood. It's why we cannot write off all Priests (although I could live with that), or all muslims- they are the only solution.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 490900)

In the past we have assigned people having trouble fitting in here a mentor. PM if you are interested.

Re: My Fucking God

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 490901)

I don't see this. I don't know what you're talking about.

TM

I hate to cite to Fox News, but, here

On the other hand, the Pew Research Center maintains that Christians are the largest religious group.

The Vatican seems to think that the Muslims still have the top spot.

I prefer to think you were actually talking about the numbers and I'm not whiffing. If I am whiffing, well, Selah.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 490899)

Some Catholic priests abused children. The Catholic church moved the priests around when it became a problem, tried to cover it up, and fought and yelled and screamed the whole time it was being uncovered. That's a problem. And when Catholics become apologists for what their church is responsible for and do not hold them to account, it is perfectly fair to criticize them for that.

Some Mullahs use Islam to justify acts of violence and incite people to commit acts of terrorism. I don't think we would argue much over the misogyny in Islam (http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/201...ogynistic.html). Why is not okay to criticize muslims for these things?

In neither case is anyone saying ALL CATHOLICS ARE OKAY WITH PEDOPHILES or ALL MUSLIMS THINK A DISOBEDIENT WIFE SHOULD BE BEATEN. But tell me exactly how you're supposed to frame a conversation about the things that one finds offensive about certain segments of the religion without being accused of labeling every person in the religion.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 490903)

In the past we have assigned people having trouble fitting in here a mentor. PM if you are interested.

Good one.

TM

Re: My Fucking God

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Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 490904)

Yo, I feel like you're just saying shit. You said some of us are painting the entire religion with one broad brush. That's bullshit. No one here is doing that. The size of the religion is completely irrelevant.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 490899)

You're missing what I'm saying.

I'm not defending Catholicism. I'm also not telling someone criticizing it that he can't appear at my graduation as speaker. I am also not accusing any critic of racism or ethnic insensitivity for stating a fact.

We can attack Maher for his opinions. But when he says Islam has a problem, which is the claim that landed him in hot water here, he's stating facts. The best anyone can offer to that is, "Keep the facts to yourself. I don't like hearing them." Berkeley may do that, which is their right.