Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

I think I could, based on the rights of the owner, but more importantly, what is the moral theory justifying the government's rights to a portion of the money?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

I saw that, but it doesn't sound right to me. What is that Center?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

The owner is dead. That was my bilmore point.

And we were talking about the recipients' "rights" because you invoked property rights. The government's right to the money derives from the consent of the governed and the legitimacy of the legislation and process under which the money is taxed. Being adults, we understand that in order to have a government, we have to pay taxes.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

That "study" ignores the other co-equal branch of government.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

• The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities is one of the nation’s premier policy organizations working at the federal and state levels on fiscal policy and public programs that affect low- and moderate-income families and individuals.
  
  The Center conducts research and analysis to inform public debates over proposed budget and tax policies and to help ensure that the needs of low-income families and individuals are considered in these debates. We also develop policy options to alleviate poverty, particularly among working families.
  
  In addition, the Center examines the short- and long-term impacts that proposed policies would have on the health of the economy and on the soundness of federal and state budgets. Among the issues we explore are whether federal and state governments are fiscally sound and have sufficient revenue to address critical priorities, both for low-income populations and for the nation as a whole.
  
  Over the past two decades, the Center has gained a reputation for producing materials that are balanced, authoritative, accessible to non-specialists, and responsive to issues currently before the country. Our materials are used by policymakers and non-profit organizations across the political spectrum, as well as by journalists from a variety of media outlets.

linky

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Then I guess we should eliminate wills?

The consent of the governed is not a moral justification.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Sorry, Ty. I thought you were kidding.

Yes. I'm a Rawlsian, and think that some degree of progressive taxation is the right model. Certainly there's room to quibble over the amount of the exemptions that are appropriate, but I think that permanently abolishing the estate tax is both profoundly fiscally irresponsible and unjustifiable even if posited in terms of incentivizing achievement.

I also disagree with club that it's "my" money just because it was Dad's. I suppose I can respect the benefits of strict constructionism in a general sense, but to my mind this doesn't dictate slavish adherence to the medieval rules of primogeniture. Perhaps the historical the artwork hanging in the fortified villa has an impact on Club's thinking in this regard.

No, instead I resisted the temptation to engage with Club on this point largely because the last time we did this, no progress was made on the "moral" aspect of it (though IIRC, the fiscal responsibility aspect of this debate did lead us to an amusing attempt to find "fat" in the federal budget that would compensate for the massive drain on the federal treasury.)

Given the interim moves by the GOP to blow gaping holes in the budget, and the additional $290B price tag for this little measure, the argument for GOP apologists becomes even more laughable, but I'm willing to give it a try if they are.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Not necessarily. E.g., capital gains, liability for which are wiped away when the estate is passed.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Forgive me, but the following two quotes cast doubt on the objectivity:

• "[The Center's] statistical work is absolutely impeccable; there is nothing at all like it on the right, or anywhere else. . . . If you care about [fiscal issues], check CBPP's site regularly for updates."
  
  Paul Krugman, New York Times columnist,
  in a May 28, 2003 column on his website listing
  websites that are "must reading for anyone interested in government policy."

• No conservative group can match the Center’s productivity."
  
  National Journal,
  December 8, 2001

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

That little trick of using "scarequotes" to impugn something that you don't like very much is pretty clever.

We could "compare" economic performance under a GOP Congress and both Republican and Democratic presidents. You're not going to like those results.

In any event, a study -- oops, I mean a "study" -- that looks to history is not going to reflect that all of the Southern politicians who love pork and don't have time for fiscal responsibility are now in the GOP, and that the Northeastern moderates who used to champion fiscal responsibility no longer have much pull in the party. Another generation, and they'll be gone.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Really? New basis on transfer?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

No, but we should eliminate whining about the estate tax.

See, I live in a democracy. So do you, but you don't like it, and apparently would prefer to live under some form of anarchic or oligarchic regime in which property rights govern all.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

I have no horse in this race. If the effects are bigger than I would expect, so be it. But I'm not going to accept as objective a site with those quotes, without more time to review.

Nice bait and switch. We are talking about fiscal responsibility, not economic performance. And I no longer have a horse in this race either. I hate both parties.

eft

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Well, if Krugman says their statistical work is impeccable, it must be full of holes. You got me there. And if the National Journal says no conservative group can match their productivity, I don't even need to know the context in which that statement was made -- it's clear that their work is worthless. I'm sure it's just riddled with errors.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

To play devil's advocate here, I've worked my butt off on a family enterprise in part because it was family but also because it's clear that one day it will be a quarter mine. Yes, there's been some estate planning in order to preserve as much of it as possible, but estate taxes could kill the inheritance. I'd like to think that we, having had a good part of our lives dedicated to it beyond simple return on investment, will do a better job running it than anyone else should we have to sell it in order to pay inheritance taxes.

I can't be alone on this.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

So, which is it? Do dead people have rights or don't they? This question seems to be central to your argument, so I'd like to see how you parse it.

What does this have to do with anything? You said I couldn't come up with a moral justification and I challenged you to do the same.

eft

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

So was I. Please recall that we ran surpluses under Clinton, which have now been replaced by massive Bush debt. And per that study, "Spending goes up faster under Republican presidents than under Democratic ones. And the economy grows faster under Democrats than Republicans. What grows faster under Republicans is debt."

Look, it's pretty simple. Reagan and Bush both discovered that a great way to win elections is to raise spending and cut taxes. Bask in the popularity, and leave the mess for someone else to clean up.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Unless there are no other assets, you could sell other assets, or just a piece of it.

If y'all are getting any federal subsidies whatsoever, I kinda have less sympathy because, honestly, if all that money is going into producing what is produced on smaller farms etc., why don't we just shred the dollar bills and use them as fertilizer?

I do have some sympathy for people who inherit tangible that is not worth nearly as much at the time the estate is being settled as it was at the time of the decedent's death. This happened to a friend of mine w/r/t oil wells or something, and we had a unit on it in estate and gift tax.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Why would those statements be made by those persons if it was not a left leaning outfit?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

You made a ludicrous statement about property rights. I challenged you for a basis. You declined to try to offer one. You then asked me to give a moral basis for the government's moral claim to the money. But I never said the government has a moral claim in the sense that you did -- i.e., as a "property right." The government taxes the money because we have to pay taxes to have a government, and because our elected representative chose that tax over others.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Maybe it's a left-leaning outfit that does top-grade analytical work. There are conservative outfits that do good work, even if it gets deployed to do evil.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Jesus fucking christ, you have become one of those people who cannot imagine that anyone would compliment something purely on the quality of the work, or that anything could be neutral.

I wish, wish, wish Dole were president. He was on NPR or something this morning talking about bringing the sides together and that's the president's role, blah blah. He did not overtly criticize Bush, but.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

What was ludicrous about the statement? You still haven't told me how we determine which rights of dead people we should in force and which we should not.

So the government need not have a moral basis to take the property of another? Let me get this staight. I have to come up with a moral basis against a double progressive taxation, which I did (i.e., property rights of the deceased), but you need not justify the government's side of the equation, other than to say, we need the money?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Well, yes, if you're talking about tax policy. Wealth has never been a protected class.

Google is a wonderful thing.
 

Perhaps. But with all of the misrepresentation that goes on with names of groups/centers etc., I've become very suspicious.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

The money frequently hasn't already been taxed. Most of the estates subject to the estate tax have a large component of inherited wealth. To suggest that it hasn't been taxed is as absurd as suggestiung that my fees shouldn't be taxed because they were already taxed to the client who earned them before me.

And property rights are not illusory. However, that doesn't mean that the government cannot properly assess an excise on the privilege of passing large amounts of property from one generation to the next.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

On the basis of Bush's tax policy, I struggle to conceive of how they could possibly be worse.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

The moral theory is that the property is no longer in its owner's hands. Therefore, it is appropriate that the government impose a transfer tax on it in exchange for granting the right to have it pass according to the decedent's wishes.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Nice try.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Yes. Automatic step up to fair market value. Poof! go the capital gains. Assuming the Republicans don't decide to eliminate the tax on them entirely anyway, rendering that point (and the economy) a dead issue.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

If you have to sell it to pay estate taxes, your parent haven't done enough estate planning. And if it's really a working ranch, then you can qualify it for special valuation, and pay the estate tax over time. Of course, your parents can just give peices of it to you and your siblings every year and avoid the issue as well, but you lose out on the basis step-up there.

All of which retunrs me to my basic point that if it is lost, it's because of inadequate planning, not because the estate tax is confiscatory.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

It's better than a nice try. It's atheory, albeit one which you may not agree with. In any event, it's more than you came up with on the other side of the argument.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

It's not.

Why don't you like my property rights of the deceased theory?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Is the estate tax calculated on market value at death or at acquisition value? I don't remember.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Because the deceased have no property rights. They're dead.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

It's assessed against the value of the estate at death, or, if the alternate valuation date is chosen, the value six months after death.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

And the deceased's family has property rights in the deceased's body (which is why we can't take all bodies for dissection) and confidential information that affects them (e.g., that the deceased had some inheritable physical problem).

Trying to head this off at the pass.

We may end up in the "confidentiality of tax records and medical records after death" morass, though.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Then why do we enforce wills?

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

So in a sense, the cap gains are taxed*? I'm just asking. Please don't hurt me.

*well, you get a buy if you the estate is below the exemption, but.

Death Tax Relief for America's Farmers. All 50 of them. The rest? Bonus!
 

Good point. We should take all the money.