Re: Franken Revisted
 

No arguments with any of this. If the answer is that an ethics inquiry under a Republican-controlled committee wouldn't actually be due process, then Franken was sunk and couldn't even get what he wanted by staying and fighting. That makes sense.

But saying that anything that a sitting senator does is to be judged purely politically is ridiculous. And it's sad that the fucking Ethics Committee (under Republican leadership) could not perform its sworn duties ethically.

TM

Re: Franken Revisted
 

I've a Moth story about how this changed my bathroom behavior in NYC once. I'd link but T already seems surly. Maybe I'll send it the FB?

Re: Franken Revisted
 

My state just passed an anti-gerrymandering law where 4 D 4 R and 1 or 3 or some number of "uncommitted" peeps votes on districts- I wonder how we test "uncommitted" and who picks them, because there's the magic.

But my State Bar has the committee that looks at your ethics and standards or whatever it is, and I have never heard it used in any way unfairly. Who says the Senate Ethics committee has to be made up of senators?

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Actually I said "maybe faking but so what?" It's the image- it's funny to grab a sleeping lady's tits!!!!

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Nor am I. Heck, I don't know much of anything about them.

I'm saying the senate ethics process does not address the political problem the party faced at the time.

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Right. They were demonstrating that actually have values and act on them instead of only pretending to when they can attack Rs (which is what Rs do).

Re: Franken Revisted
 

When Clinton was getting raked over infidelities, an R congress leader was outed for cheating on wife. He resigned because to do otherwise would compromise Clinton hunting.

Both sides play the same games, admit that one side has turned crazy and evil, but running off Franken wasn’t about values. Unless you mean “valuing winning back Congress?”

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I haven't watched any of the Mueller testimony, but a liberal criminal defense trial attorney friend of mine posted this on Facebook. Thoughts?
LessinSaoPaulo

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Right. All about values. 🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Mueller did testify the sole basis not to indict was OLC memo. That’s something.

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Your continual, mealy-mouthed repetition that the issue was solely political has grown tiresome. There is no point continuing to do discuss this with you.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I've watched some, and followed some on twitter.

My assessment is very different, but I'm not some flashy criminal defense attorney but a corporate lawyer who spends a lot of time around not at all flashy people trying to get difficult technical issues right.

There was a surprising amount of substance in many of the exchanges with the Dems. Mueller's pace and speech patterns show some of his age, but when he was permitted to speak (the Rs rarely let him get a full response out) he came across with real gravitas - think a male RBG. That substance was uniformly damning for Trump.

It wasn't flashy and the Rs approach of ridiculing him for his age should but may not backfire, but if you paid attention to the substance his performance was mostly thoughtful, direct and articulate. Maybe folks are too used to practiced talking heads with no substance.

If you want to see the best R questioning, pull up Buck's questioning, he was clearly hostile, but it was more focused and on point than any of the other Rs, and Mueller responds well, but he does show his age as he listens and responds, and Buck takes 90% of the time with Mueller mostly getting to respond in just short direct sentences. For dems, look at Shiff's opening, you'll see it around, it lays out the case in chief.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Per usual, you assumed something upon which you had no basis. My friend does white collar CD and your derogatory characterization of em as "flashy" only shows your bias. And I will take em's analysis of how a witness appeared over yours. Can you explain why Mueller could not remember which President appointed him other than cognitive disability?
LessinSaoPaulo

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I did WCCD. Most good WC defense lawyers are ex-US Attys. They’re as flashy as a Lands End catalogue.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

If Democrats in Congress think that Trump et al. did what Mueller say he did, they should open congressional investigations to build the case, instead of thinking that they can call Mueller in to do that work for them.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I spend most of my days litigating punctuation marks in old Japanese documents.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

He already built the case. WTF are you talking about? Congressional investigations? What would be added? I rue the day you and yours achieve any control.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Democrats in Congress can do one of three things:
1. vote on impeachment now,
2. continuing investigating to build out the story and drive coverage, or
3. drop it.

1. appears almost as futile as 3., because Republicans in the Senate are not going to vote for impeachment at present. If that holds, the ultimate remedy is political -- use what Trump did in a way that hurts him and Republicans in the next election. The best path to that is 2. I believe that the Mueller report is pretty damning, but for those who don't, flesh it out and make the evidentiary record clear, instead of something in AG Barr's file cabinets.

eta: Josh Marshall:

Through countless debates over recent months we’ve had one core issue. We relied on a criminal investigation with the Trump/Russia scandal rather than an investigative commission or true congressional inquiry. That flawed decision is at the heart of most of what was discussed today.

Normally, prosecutors should investigate and indict or not indict and that is it. That was the repeated claim from Committee Republicans today and if it’s a conventional criminal probe they’re right. To them, there really shouldn’t have been a Report at all. Indeed, because the President couldn’t be indicted he shouldn’t even have been investigated at all. All of these claims make sense if you buy into the premise that this is a conventional criminal investigation – something the current Special Counsel guidelines leave ambiguous.

In practice it’s not true.

What the public has needed and to a great degree expected was not specific indictments or non-indictments but answers on what actually happened. Illumination rather than prosecution is what is really critical, especially since the most serious kinds of wrongdoing may not be crimes. That fact, by the enfolded logic of the probe, meant that the most critical information remained confidential, with the possibility of real disclosure in the hands of Bill Barr, the President’s fixer.

Because the only real investigation is a criminal one, we’re told that it’s really not ours to know. The only question we get an answer to is whether there was sufficient evidence to mount a criminal prosecution. That’s a legitimate legal standard. It’s all but meaningless as a civic, democratic standard. We got some information in the Report. But we didn’t get to see any of the key witnesses testimony. We can’t ask the chief investigators the most basic questions about what they found. Mueller and his team say we get some information, the Report. Republicans say we should get none. Both operate, however, on the basic premise that this is a criminal investigation and the public’s right to know is highly circumscribed by a thicket of DOJ guidelines and Bill Barr’s efforts to protect Donald Trump. To a significant degree, they’re right. That’s why a public investigation, a congressional investigation are absolutely critical.

The key questions and the critical questions of accountability and national safety are not bound up in statute laws. At the end of the day, Rep. Adam Schiff seemed to suggest he would conduct such an investigation as I’ve described above. “We must find out.” It wasn’t clear to me whether he was serious about this, whether we’re going to get the kind of investigation we need or whether he just means the same in the shadows stuff that has been going on for months to no particular end. We know that the President has basically stonewalled every effort to get the testimony of people who served in his administration. That in itself is an abuse of power. But his ability to shield events during the campaign is vastly less. Everyone who shows up in the campaign period investigation should be called up to the hill for public testimony. Clearly, from today, that should happen under Chairman Schiff.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yup. It’s over. Particularly now that Mueller walked back his OLC statement with a later clarification he did not mean to assert Trump could be indicted for his unique acts.

Trump would stymie a Congressional investigation. He’d drag it out by sheer refusal to comply as Barr and Ross have done and play the Democrats’ efforts in it as a continued “witch hunt.”

The country does not give a shit about this. It actually makes people angry because it conveys the impression the parties are only interested in political gains and not implementing policy that impacts people’s daily lives. Pelosi knows this stuff is playing into Trump’s hands.

Josh Marshall’s advice is excellent... if we’d a nation of lawyers and people who view obstruction as significant. We don’t. We have people who care about jobs and health care. The Democrats have blown off enough toes with Russiagate. Any more and they won’t be able to walk. The better battlefield is the Blue Wall, where Trump can lose.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Start the impeachment process.

TM

Re: Franken Revisted
 

Take it to biketalkers. Hank is now on mothtalkers.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Even if some Dems think that impeachment will be politically costly, I don't understand how they think doing nothing makes the issue go away. If you think it will be a net negative, you should be for getting it over with sooner rather than later, not leaving it to be an ongoing issue through next year's campaign.

Also, we're going to need to campaign against his corruption and criminality. We really shouldn't be leaving him with "if I'm so bad, why haven't you guys impeached me?" as an easy response.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Maybe they know something we don't? One thing pols are good at is keeping their jobs. A symbolic impeachment shot down in the Senate could be a Trump victory, just like Clinton "won" his.

If there is a real danger in losing the House by doing that, maybe they realize it isn't worth it? Without the House things would be fucked worse right now. And there is always the chance of taking the senate next year?

There is a good chance space-fuck gets voted out next year anyway- just needs to go- to me doesn't matter how.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Agree completely, although the universe of people who need to be (or who actually can be) convinced of his criminality has to be fairly small at this point.

It can't just be a political analysis--and I think Democrats are wrong on the political impact of impeachment hearings anyway. Signals to all future Presidents need to be sent that if you fuck around like this, you will be dragged.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I spend my days in such a way that I think this is really cool.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Put me down as ready for impeachment. That said, I'd like hearings to occur after labor day, when people are paying attention.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

And be done by the end of the year.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I find this take on Mueller persuasive:

“Even if some think Mueller has lost a step since he last appeared before Congress six years ago, he still looked a step or two ahead of most of his questioners on Wednesday. Most importantly, he appeared above the fray, cautious, and fair in the face of bitter partisan rancor. That is what we should expect from prosecutors, and it is the legacy that Mueller leaves behind.”

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...awesome-227478

Having seen and heard some more testimony, he’s being judged a bit unfairly. Imagine if you had to sit through that cavalcade of whores and morons slapping you with the dumbest rhetorical questioning.

We might consider giving him another medal. Few have faced so many idiots and not accidentally provided the desired soundbites. That he’s frustrated both the Rs and Ds indicates Mueller acted properly.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You need to Never Give Political Advice. This is insanely wrong.

Trump’s recklessness is a feature to populists, not a bug.* Don’t you get it? The Trump voters want an outlaw. So did the Bernie voters. They want to crash the system. It’s just like Brexit. Flagging Trump for obstruction and then losing on impeachment only alienates your party among the populists who might otherwise vote for Lunchbox Joe if he can sell them on the notion he’s the true hero of the forgotten man and woman.

Why do you think Warren’s getting so much traction? She’s another “hand grenade in the system” candidate, that’s why.

Impeachment makes the Ds look like a mix of political gamers and Javerts... Recipe for loss in 2020. Listen To Pelosi. Listen to her and never stop listening to her.

_____
* There’s also a strange romantic element at work. Crude as he is, Trump captures that deep seated American admiration for those who buck the system. Even while being a proponent of a new, very unfair and undemocratic system. Bernie has this same romantic element working for him — sort of a Bullworth effect.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

That Joe is very much the most establishment person running, and running that way, is strong reason to be skeptical of him in the general election.

Anyway, both the populists you're talking about and the less motivated to vote that Bernie expressly plays to aren't going to be convinced that you'll fight for them by running away from a fight. Capitulation isn't a strategy.

You mean the first, and strongest, candidate for impeachment?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Isn't he dead from the debate? Pretty clearly out of it mentally?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think Harris killed him, but he's still the polling leader.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

AAAARRRRGGGG

Lurking on a FB friend's page, she posted about some movie that summarized how the Russians changed the election with social media-

And a Green posted about how he couldn't vote for Hil so Jill Stein got his vote. then he started musing about the US politics generally, and how bad Trump voters are because they simply don't care about POC or foreigners.

And it occurred to me, voting third party is the very definition of privilege. This nut did as much harm as any Trump voter.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Your argument seems to be, fuck the people who didn't vote for Hillary... they'd no reasonable basis to do that. Well, they'd say to you, what obligation did they have to vote for Hillary? Because you say so?

If third party voting is the definition of privilege, how do you explain so many Bernie followers doing it? Bernie's base was not the 1%. These were people without privilege saying, "If I'm offered more of the status quo, I think I'll just stay home."

And not all Trump voters caused harm. A lot of Trump voters got exactly what they wanted. How's that harm to them? Do you mean "harm to the country?" Well, who are you to say what's harm to the country? "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," as the saying goes.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

REMINDER: you're fucked. and you fucked us. fuck you.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

2

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No, harm to non-white people. Voting for Jill Stein is a specie of white privilege- in the face of a man threatening harm, hell promising harm, to non-whites, and you vote on some Ivory tower shit- only way is because he was not threatened himself. The guy I was reading said Trump voters must hate POC and immigrants because they voted for a guy who promised to fuck POC and immigrants over. But em didn't seem to get that his Jill vote fucked those people just as surely. I'm not posting this to mess with you- it just genuinely sickened me to hear someone complaining about how Trump voters obv don't care about some groups of people- em thinks he is educated but didn't see his stupidity at all.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yup

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

And about to do it again, big time by voting for Harris, Big Gay Pete, whomever, instead of Biden, who would win.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You think people have an obligation to place your priorities above their own. You prioritize not having Trump in office. Many Stein voters prioritize seeing a third party candidate get traction.

That's not Stein voters exerting privilege. That's Stein voters having different priorities than you do.

I've finished most of White Privilege. I've had a hard time disagreeing with anything she said. The book is quite economical and lucid. But one thing I've not gotten from it is what you seem to be asserting here: That all voters must put the interests of POC at the top of their lists of priorities. Stein voters seem to care more about getting traction for the Green party than anything else. Who are you, me, or anyone else to tell them they must realign their priorities?

That's kind of what's been irritating about Russiagate. Trump is a buffoon and criminally oriented. But he won the election. The recourse is to beat him at the ballot box. The Left seems to think because it so detests him, he has no authority to be President. The Right did the same thing for eight years in regard to Obama.

The Left may have been right about Bush II. He arguably did steal the election and had no authority to preside in office. But Trump is a different story. He won the game. The game is replayed every four years. You get to beat him in 2020.

This thinking you seem to be exhibiting - that one must adhere to your priorities or be in a sort of "sphere of deviancy" for voters - is, well, a bit arrogant.

The argument you make is made routinely by Trump voters - "How can you not vote for the guy if he's worth X in tax savings, you dumbass." It's also made by Bernie voters - "Biden is corporate." Their priorities are different than yours. If you think your priorities are the best, okay. But no omniscient arbiter has said you're correct about that, and none ever will.