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-   -   I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=879)

Tyrone Slothrop 11-21-2016 02:28 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504041)
Remember when Sebby loved Bill Clinton and wished he could vote for him for a third term?

But, you know, there's something, uh, different, about Hillary....
He really had no choice.

Somewhere I saw someone say that people think of voting as like sending a valentine, when it's really like making a chess move.

Adder 11-21-2016 02:52 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504023)
These people don't want govt intervention.

There's also something to think about in how many of these people live where the GOP has intentionally made government not work. From refusing Medicaid expansion to attacking higher education to gutting government workforces.

I'm thinking heavily about Scott Walker's Wisconsin, but Florida and Ohio and all of the deep south have people in power who don't want government to work.

ThurgreedMarshall 11-21-2016 02:54 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504042)
Somewhere I saw someone say that people think of voting as like sending a valentine, when it's really like making a chess move.
I've been trying to express this again and again. This is perfect. Everyone thinks voting is a self-affirming, cathartic act when really it should be looked at as pragmatically as possible (which is why it's called "civic duty" and not "civic pleasures").

I'm so stealing this.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 11-21-2016 02:59 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 504044)
I've been trying to express this again and again. This is perfect. Everyone thinks voting is a self-affirming, cathartic act when really it should be looked at as pragmatically as possible (which is why it's called "civic duty" and not "civic pleasures").

I'm so stealing this.

TM
I stole it, so you should too.

But maybe the lesson there for Democrats is that many voters want to send valentines, not play chess.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-21-2016 03:19 PM
caption, please
 
https://images.newrepublic.com/3214b...&fm=pjpg&h=698

Adder 11-21-2016 03:20 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504045)
I stole it, so you should too.

But maybe the lesson there for Democrats is that many voters want to send valentines, not play chess.
Which sounds a bit like a re-hashing of the "have a beer with" test.

ThurgreedMarshall 11-21-2016 03:28 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder (Post 504048)
Which sounds a bit like a re-hashing of the "have a beer with" test.
I think of it differently. These Susan Sarandon assholes think of voting as something that is self-affirming. "When you pull that lever, you should feel good about yourself. If you can't, then you shouldn't do it." Take that bullshit elsewhere. The decision you make should be one that helps you while doing the least amount of harm to other people. Period. Take your feelings out back and put them down like a two-legged rabid dog.

TM

Adder 11-21-2016 03:37 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Something else:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxzFpwMUsAAEatc.jpg (link to preserve margins).

How many lost blue collar jobs were in non-metropolitan areas? Coal mines I suppose, but for the most part, that's not where factory jobs went away.

You'd think small and midsize metros might have had a high concentration of them, though.

Adder 11-21-2016 03:55 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Richard Rorty in 1998:

Quote:
[M]embers of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers—themselves desperately afraid of being downsized—are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for—someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots. A scenario like that of Sinclair Lewis’ novel It Can’t Happen Here may then be played out. For once a strongman takes office, nobody can predict what will happen. In 1932, most of the predictions made about what would happen if Hindenburg named Hitler chancellor were wildly overoptimistic.

One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion. The words [slur for an African-American that begins with “n”] and [slur for a Jewish person that begins with “k”] will once again be heard in the workplace. All the sadism which the academic Left has tried to make unacceptable to its students will come flooding back. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet

ThurgreedMarshall 11-21-2016 05:04 PM
Right
 
http://65.media.tumblr.com/c8787ebe2...c6nao1_500.jpg

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 11-21-2016 06:10 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
nothing to see, move along

sebastian_dangerfield 11-21-2016 06:56 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 504036)
I wish anything you said was based on substance instead of what you feel is true.

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/03/the-...icy-proposals/

TM
We all have Google. You want me to volley that with a competing cite for the opposite proposition? Or would you rather try to have a conversation?

sebastian_dangerfield 11-21-2016 07:03 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
No. It's not. Trump did not get a big wave of turnout. Those are numbers. That undermines your story. We don't need to get into who stayed home to know that what you are selling is at least incomplete, perhaps even flat out wrong.

You can't prove any of that without an assumption. There's no way to tease out a "cause." And the answer's more complex than any dumb shit we offer each other here, and incorporates little bits and pieces of every explanation that's been offered.

Quote:
Of course they do ("keep government out of my Medicare"). They just want government intervention that they perceive as benefiting themselves and not "those people." How can you still be this clueless after the election we just went through?
Right. You're the Lorax of the Trumpkins. God, how fucking tedious can your generalizations be?

Quote:
This is part of the problem. You and they reject out of hand the only things we can do.
It's been tried and failed. That's why it's being rejected. Also, only a stone cold Asperger's case would offer something as idiotic as, "We can train a 45 year old manufacturing worker to code, and move him from Ohio to the Google campus in Pittsburgh!" Some shit's just too stupid to seriously consider. Read Rise of the Robots. Please, fucking read it.

Quote:
And they do work. They help those who actually want jobs get them. But you're talking about people who don't want jobs, they want the past. We can't do anything for them.
Now you're getting it. Except, that's almost all of them. You're living in two countries occupying the same boundaries.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-21-2016 07:08 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 504027)
The discussion of the utility of retraining the chronically unemployed steel workers and coal miners is depressing. It simply isn't going to work. Perhaps in small slivers of the economy it might work for a short time. I think, or hope, that solar power may be one area where manufacturing and installing jobs may increase significantly.

For those of you who are insufficiently depressed about the outcome of the election, I offer last year's Rise of the Robots by Martin Ford. I just finished it.

Combine:

(1) the bleak job prospects Ford projects in "Robots", which The Economist not too long ago described as "forced leisure"'

(2) the collapse of municipal finances and the concomitant collapse of municipal pensions (see this morning's news about the implosion of Dallas, which is just the tip of an iceberg with New Jersey and Illinois as dominoes), and the inability of those pensioners to support themselves,

(3) my fellow baby boomers who have saved nothing for their retirement, and those that were counting on pensions, are in for a shock,

(4) the drastic insolvency of the PBGC,

(5) the shrinking number of employed people who support an increasing number of social security beneficiaries, who will live much, much longer than their parents,

(6) the anger that will increase when Trump can't deliver on jobs, because nobody can,

And the result is as bleak a ten-to-twenty year economic picture as has existed in my front-edge-of-the-baby-boomer cohort lifetime. Drink up!
I'm replying this again just to say to everyone who wants to have other conversations, This shit in the quotes above -- what Ferrets wrote... This is the only conversation that matters. The rest of what we discuss is useful, but it's all secondary to this. If you aren't primarily focusing on this, your viewpoint on the future of anything isn't going to be enlightened in any useful fashion. That sounds dickish, and that's exactly my intention. Because everybody needs to read that book, along with a copy of Tyler Cowen's Average is Over.

Hank Chinaski 11-21-2016 07:57 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504060)
nothing to see, move along
Ty can clean up his drunken posts, President Trump can't call back military strikes launched at 3 AM fueled by whatever.

Hank Chinaski 11-21-2016 07:59 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504042)
He really had no choice.

Somewhere I saw someone say that people think of voting as like sending a valentine, when it's really like making a chess move.
except most of America can't play chess, and 90% of those that do are bad at it.

Hank (always torn the week of THE GAME) Chinaski

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-21-2016 08:18 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller (Post 504027)
The discussion of the utility of retraining the chronically unemployed steel workers and coal miners is depressing. It simply isn't going to work. Perhaps in small slivers of the economy it might work for a short time. I think, or hope, that solar power may be one area where manufacturing and installing jobs may increase significantly.

For those of you who are insufficiently depressed about the outcome of the election, I offer last year's Rise of the Robots by Martin Ford. I just finished it.

Combine:

(1) the bleak job prospects Ford projects in "Robots", which The Economist not too long ago described as "forced leisure"'

(2) the collapse of municipal finances and the concomitant collapse of municipal pensions (see this morning's news about the implosion of Dallas, which is just the tip of an iceberg with New Jersey and Illinois as dominoes), and the inability of those pensioners to support themselves,

(3) my fellow baby boomers who have saved nothing for their retirement, and those that were counting on pensions, are in for a shock,

(4) the drastic insolvency of the PBGC,

(5) the shrinking number of employed people who support an increasing number of social security beneficiaries, who will live much, much longer than their parents,

(6) the anger that will increase when Trump can't deliver on jobs, because nobody can,

And the result is as bleak a ten-to-twenty year economic picture as has existed in my front-edge-of-the-baby-boomer cohort lifetime. Drink up!

Here's the thing, Dems managed to save the auto industry but not most of the union jobs. Most of the union jobs are going to be undercut by subcontracting and outsourcing (not even outsourcing abroad necessarily - just outsourcing to Tennessee may get you out from under union contracts).

If we want to save the union jobs, we have to save unions, that means organizing, that means labor laws protecting organizing, and that is precisely at the core of what the Scott Walkers of the world are fighting.

What has just happened electorally is going to massively accelerate this process, and Dems are going to be fighting it along the way. But, this election really screwed the pooch on that score, and, let's face, if the auto or steel industries have another event like 2008 hit, the Dems won't have the muscle to save them and the Rs will look at it as a restructuring opportunity.

But I have to go back to work now, because health care costs wiped out a massive amount of my net worth, and just praise the lord I had net worth to get wiped out.

Hank Chinaski 11-21-2016 08:33 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504067)
Here's the thing, Dems managed to save the auto industry but not most of the union jobs. Most of the union jobs are going to be undercut by subcontracting and outsourcing (not even outsourcing abroad necessarily - just outsourcing to Tennessee may get you out from under union contracts).

If we want to save the union jobs, we have to save unions, that means organizing, that means labor laws protecting organizing, and that is precisely at the core of what the Scott Walkers of the world are fighting.

What has just happened electorally is going to massively accelerate this process, and Dems are going to be fighting it along the way. But, this election really screwed the pooch on that score, and, let's face, if the auto or steel industries have another event like 2008 hit, the Dems won't have the muscle to save them and the Rs will look at it as a restructuring opportunity.

But I have to go back to work now, because health care costs wiped out a massive amount of my net worth, and just praise the lord I had net worth to get wiped out.
Didn't Bush tee up the auto bailout?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-21-2016 08:58 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 504068)
Didn't Bush tee up the auto bailout?
I believe he did, during the lame duck, but needed dem votes to make it happen, but you likely paid closer attention to the detail than me

Then Obama carried the ball and implemented

Damn man, those were the days

sebastian_dangerfield 11-21-2016 09:17 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504067)
Here's the thing, Dems managed to save the auto industry but not most of the union jobs. Most of the union jobs are going to be undercut by subcontracting and outsourcing (not even outsourcing abroad necessarily - just outsourcing to Tennessee may get you out from under union contracts).

If we want to save the union jobs, we have to save unions, that means organizing, that means labor laws protecting organizing, and that is precisely at the core of what the Scott Walkers of the world are fighting.

What has just happened electorally is going to massively accelerate this process, and Dems are going to be fighting it along the way. But, this election really screwed the pooch on that score, and, let's face, if the auto or steel industries have another event like 2008 hit, the Dems won't have the muscle to save them and the Rs will look at it as a restructuring opportunity.

But I have to go back to work now, because health care costs wiped out a massive amount of my net worth, and just praise the lord I had net worth to get wiped out.
Trump and all the other coming Brexits won't significantly stall globalization. They'll be speed bumps at most. And nothing will stop automation. We can agree on these realities, right?

So then, apart from social issues, the only real difference between a D and an R run country is how long we can put off the inevitable impacts of what's coming.

Few of us here will outrun it. The serious future savings from the algorithms is the transfer of white collar professional wages to investors. We talk about the Trumpkins as though they're alien to us. They are culturally, but in terms of labor market value, we're just a step away. We are next. And no D or R is going to stop that.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-21-2016 09:25 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 504066)
except most of America can't play chess, and 90% of those that do are bad at it.

Hank (always torn the week of THE GAME) Chinaski
There's another logic out there: Burn it all down now and get the inescapable pain over with sooner than later.

Trump might be the mid sized crisis that forces radical policy change within a short time frame rather than continued kicking of the can which leads to a truly apocalyptic situation later.

Nothing changes seriously in this country (or most places, really) but for a massive crisis. I think this is a fatalist view, but a very realistic one.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-22-2016 12:11 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504071)
There's another logic out there: Burn it all down now and get the inescapable pain over with sooner than later.
What's the logic? That's more like nihilism. At least National Socialism is an ethos.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-22-2016 07:11 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504076)
What's the logic? That's more like nihilism. At least National Socialism is an ethos.
Might as well have the root canal the tooth now, before it becomes the abscessed mess it will inevitably become, requiring extraction. It's not nihilism. It's hedging against what you perceive is a surely worse future if the current trends are not arrested.

The better pop culture reference might be, "walk before they make [us] run."

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-22-2016 09:43 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504071)
There's another logic out there: Burn it all down now and get the inescapable pain over with sooner than later.

Trump might be the mid sized crisis that forces radical policy change within a short time frame rather than continued kicking of the can which leads to a truly apocalyptic situation later.

Nothing changes seriously in this country (or most places, really) but for a massive crisis. I think this is a fatalist view, but a very realistic one.
First they came for the Muslims, and I said, meh, burn it down, why not.

Then they came for the Jews, and I said, hey, nothing like a crisis to get some change.

Then they came for the Gays, and I said, at least it's not the apocalypse yet.

You seem enamored of burning it down but have no actual policy suggestions here. What policies do you want and why can't you have them without sparking a "crisis" or "burning it all down"?

sebastian_dangerfield 11-22-2016 10:18 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504078)
First they came for the Muslims, and I said, meh, burn it down, why not.

Then they came for the Jews, and I said, hey, nothing like a crisis to get some change.

Then they came for the Gays, and I said, at least it's not the apocalypse yet.

You seem enamored of burning it down but have no actual policy suggestions here. What policies do you want and why can't you have them without sparking a "crisis" or "burning it all down"?
I'm not enamored of it. Were I, I would have voted for Trump. I'm simply offering some of the logical reasons I believe some people voted for this man.

Adder 11-22-2016 10:30 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504062)
It's been tried and failed. That's why it's being rejected.
Could you at least try to be semi-consistent? Because one day you say we need UBI and the next you say we've already tried everything.

And no, it hasn't been tried and failed. We've done next to nothing on relocation assistance. And we just had a massive recession the response to which did not involve any additional education money and minimal for job-training.

Oh, and here's you on whether they work, "Retraining works for a very small % of these people."

I'm not arguing that these things are going to fully re-employ low skilled-labor. I'm saying they are what we can do for those who want help. The message to those displaced needs to be that they have to help themselves too, instead of Trump-like lies.

Quote:
Read Rise of the Robots. Please, fucking read it.
I might, but you guys really need to stop and ask yourself whether there's a market for a robot book with the thesis, "yes, the robots are coming, but it's going to be okay and a lot of it's already happened."

Adder 11-22-2016 10:46 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Employment in manufacturing: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=bQY6

I couldn't immediately find a way to do this as a percentage of population, or of working age population, but suffice it to say that 12 million people working in manufacturing in 2015 is much smaller portion of either figure than was 19.5 million in 1979. (US population has grown by about 100 million or 50% since then).

And yes, the robots are coming for us next. It will be okay.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-22-2016 11:08 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504079)
I'm not enamored of it. Were I, I would have voted for Trump. I'm simply offering some of the logical reasons I believe some people voted for this man.
Huh. You may want to re-read what you wrote. Because it didn't say that.

Adder 11-22-2016 11:22 AM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504063)
I'm replying this again just to say to everyone who wants to have other conversations, This shit in the quotes above -- what Ferrets wrote... This is the only conversation that matters. The rest of what we discuss is useful, but it's all secondary to this. If you aren't primarily focusing on this, your viewpoint on the future of anything isn't going to be enlightened in any useful fashion. That sounds dickish, and that's exactly my intention. Because everybody needs to read that book, along with a copy of Tyler Cowen's Average is Over.
No one thing is ever the entire story or the only issue, especially with respect to the US economy, or even more so, the global economy. Anyone telling you that is a charlatan (remember when 3-D printing was going to replace all of everything??).

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-22-2016 12:56 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 504018)
That polling indicates that the party is far to the left of most Americans on the issue of abortion ....reinforce the presumptiousness that the Left knows better than everyone else.
Here's the Gallup numbers. You can see further breakdowns of that line on the top, legal under certain circumstances, if you look at Gallup's site. I'd say looking at that that the Democratic party is closer to whatever consensus positions exist than the Republicans.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gal...rrl5ccpy2w.png

But frankly, I also don't see any great trend lines for the Republicans on that graph.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-22-2016 01:23 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
A question from the Twitter:

Q for everyone saying Dems would have won with diff policy ideas: Since media completely failed to cover policy, how would this have worked?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 11-22-2016 01:51 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504085)
A question from the Twitter:

Q for everyone saying Dems would have won with diff policy ideas: Since media completely failed to cover policy, how would this have worked?
As you point out, irrelevant to the Presidency, since policy got completely ignored, despite best efforts.

On the Senate there are places where policy might have made a difference, though the biggest issue in those races was that Dems were eager to run with Clinton and Obama while Rs ran away from Trump. Bigger lesson may be that you're always safer running a local than national race. Though Maggie Hassan may disagree.

ferrets_bueller 11-22-2016 02:04 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Concerning the abortion graph: This is a cultural clash that will never, ever be settled. Nor does it appear to me to be an issue that will decide a national election, unless and until Roe v. Wade is overturned by sending the issue back to state legislatures.

I proffer a different issue, and a graph, that I find depressing to the point of existential despair. According to Larry Summers: A simple linear trend suggests that by mid-century about a quarter of men between 25 and 54 will not be working at any moment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-american-men/

(I lack the skills to copy the graph itself into this text.)

Sure, others may quibble, but if he is even close to correct the trend will tear American society apart.

Tyrone Slothrop 11-22-2016 03:01 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Clearly, Donald Trump is going to use the presidency to enrich himself and his family. It's hard to believe that other people in the government won't see this happening and want to get a piece of the action. Instead of whining about conflicts of interest, what is the best way for Democrats to make this a political issue that works for them?

ThurgreedMarshall 11-22-2016 04:16 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 504061)
We all have Google. You want me to volley that with a competing cite for the opposite proposition? Or would you rather try to have a conversation?
I'd like to see some support for the following: "WaPo, the Times, and CNN did more than adequate hit jobs on him to offset any generosity they showed him, and any hit jobs they did on Hillary." Thanks in advance!

TM

Not Bob 11-22-2016 04:16 PM
I'm looking for a partner, someone who gets things fixed.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 504088)
Clearly, Donald Trump is going to use the presidency to enrich himself and his family. It's hard to believe that other people in the government won't see this happening and want to get a piece of the action. Instead of whining about conflicts of interest, what is the best way for Democrats to make this a political issue that works for them?
Dunno, but I just got off the phone with Jared, and am pleased to announce that the plans for Trump Podunkville Golf & Classy Resort are going forward.

On a completely unrelated note, Piggly Wiggly's Vice President for Deli Slicing Safety is in the running for OSHA.

SEC_Chick 11-22-2016 04:26 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504084)
Here's the Gallup numbers. You can see further breakdowns of that line on the top, legal under certain circumstances, if you look at Gallup's site. I'd say looking at that that the Democratic party is closer to whatever consensus positions exist than the Republicans.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gal...rrl5ccpy2w.png

But frankly, I also don't see any great trend lines for the Republicans on that graph.
So I lost a long reply when my browser froze up, but of course you aren't going to show the data that shows that Americans support a 20 week abortion ban, or oppose taxpayer funding on abortion (I think it was 57% and 62% respectively, but I'm not looking it up again). Those are moderate positions. The levels of support for those propositions was even higher among Millennials. That would seem to be a positive trend from a pro-life perspective.

The reason Hillary was seen as extreme was her unwillingness to specify an example as to a single limit she would place on third trimester abortion. Which is an extreme position. The Democratic platform no longer calls for abortion to be rare and calls for it to be taxpayer funded. That is not supported by the majority of Americans. Hillary even said that abortion is a Constitutional right, which women should be able to access without regard to ability to pay. But she cannot bring herself to concede that the 2nd Amendment, explicit in the text, is a right, and can you imagine the vapors if one ridiculously asserted that he had a tight to taxpayer funded guns? She likened pro-life supporters to terrorists.... I could go on. But it wouldn't change your mind.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-22-2016 04:27 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 504082)
Huh. You may want to re-read what you wrote. Because it didn't say that.
You read that into it. I like going through the exercise of seeing things from all angles.

There is logic to that, and it's one I'll bet a fair number of Trump voters employed.

sebastian_dangerfield 11-22-2016 04:30 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 504089)
I'd like to see some support for the following: "WaPo, the Times, and CNN did more than adequate hit jobs on him to offset any generosity they showed him, and any hit jobs they did on Hillary." Thanks in advance!

TM
For starters... http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-med...egative-230297

https://www.google.com/amp/thehill.c...?client=safari

Adder 11-22-2016 04:47 PM
Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 504091)
So I lost a long reply when my browser froze up, but of course you aren't going to show the data that shows that Americans support a 20 week abortion ban, or oppose taxpayer funding on abortion (I think it was 57% and 62% respectively, but I'm not looking it up again). Those are moderate positions.
No, they are not. 20 weeks is well before viability even with extraordinary medical intervention. There's nothing moderate about that, no matter how well it polls (and honestly, how may people polled do you think have a good sense of where 20 weeks is in fetal development?)

And "no taxpayer funding" is just stupidity, as though taxpayers aren't paying for abortions via their health insurance premiums.

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The reason Hillary was seen as extreme was her unwillingness to specify an example as to a single limit she would place on third trimester abortion.
Perhaps because they basically never happen and when they do, they are because of severe medical conditions that require intervention. Like, why do we need a restriction on a procedure that only happens when the life of the mother or baby is at stake?

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Hillary even said that abortion is a Constitutional right
I think you'll find that was the Supreme Court.

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She likened pro-life supporters to terrorists
Well, there is the little issue that some pro-life supports are, in fact, terrorists.


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