Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It prevented us from knowing what actually happened.

I did not. You're the only one having this stupid discussion.

Now that you've dragged me into this asinine topic: no. This sentence is stupid.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I agree with you completely. Joe Biden is a white man. He makes white people comfortable. He's also leading when it comes to the black vote, apparently. He's crushing Trump in every fucking poll. Trump needs to be absolutely crushed. And the reality is that the more people pulling the lever up and down the ticket Dem because they see a white man who isn't a complete piece of shit, the more likely Dems retake the Senate. And for God's sake, retaking the Senate is a must. Going through another four years of McConnell rejecting every single piece of legislation and declining to affirm Democratic judges would be a fucking disaster.

I feel like Warren, Harris, Pete, Booker would all be great. But this is not about anyone's fucking feelings. This election needs to be over-fucking-whelming.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I am trying my best to ignore you because 80% of what you say is stupid. And I'm not putting energy into the rest of your brain-dead post, but this is so overwhelmingly ridiculous that I cannot help myself.

What you said above is complete and total fucking bullshit. You should know this. I think you do. And I'm not going to explain it to you. Again. But every time you say it, someone should tell you that you are full of shit. So, you're full of shit.

You're welcome.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This is absolutely wrong. There is no one out there who needs to be excited to vote in the next election. If you're not excited to vote against Trump at this point, you're not getting off your ass to vote for any of these other people.

White people are the fucking key. White people are fucking this country. White people want someone "safe" to vote for. And I'm talking about the ones in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Florida.

Excited? Jesus Christ. How can anyone be more motivated to vote in an election? If my wife were running, I'd vote for Joe Biden.

This "generate excitement" stuff is garbage. Bernie's ceiling is low. He's going to excite the same number of people as last time. Kamala is a black woman. Her ceiling is capped. Pete is gay. His ceiling is capped. Etc.

I hate that it is this way. But that is the way it is.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Why are you arguing with him on his terms? It doesn't have to be a crime to be a high crime and misdemeanor. Welcoming foreign help from our enemy to win an election and using hacked (read: stolen) information qualifies. And that's before the obstruction.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

1. You are wrong.
2. Attempted obstruction is obstruction, per the statute, you shit weasel.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Are you asking a serious question or being Hank? Because I honestly can't tell if this is serious.

TM

I'm on a roll
 

"Former Vice President Joe Biden widened his lead in the 2020 Democratic presidential primary to 19 points over second-placed Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), according to the latest Quinnipiac poll released Monday."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...MAxTwKyeuc-DE8

If you need someone to excite, make that person Biden's running mate.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

That doesn't speak to the issue.

Is Trump a duly elected President with authority to administer his office? Answer that.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Shmuck, I was addressing whether his obstruction succeeded. That's what Adder and I were arguing about. If you want to have a discussion about whether attempted obstruction is obstruction under the statute, that's a different discussion.

Think, breathe, then write.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Trump is President, elected lawfully (yes, he is). People who dislike him are and have been asserting his presidency is somehow illegitimate.

Obama was President, elected lawfully. Clinton was elected lawfully. People who disliked them asserted throughout their Presidencies that they were somehow illegitimate.

These are 1:1. In each case, the authority of each President was identical. They were duly elected and had the power to administer their offices. I used authority for a reason. They held identical authority under law. And the people who claimed that they did not hold that authority were never able to make the case for why they took that position.

I was citing a fallacy among the right and the left that appears to have taken hold since Clinton -- that if you don't like the winner, the winner is somehow invalid. That's bizarre thinking. If you asked Obama or Clinton haters why they took that position (and they did), they could provide no credible answer. If you ask Trump haters why they take that position, they can provide no credible answer.

I cited Bush II as an exception because there is a solid argument his Presidency was illegitimate.

I don't include you in the crowd of people who think Trump is somehow illegitimate. I assume you think he is legitimately elected and needs to be removed. I wasn't so sure about Adder.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hillary tried to look cool and above Trump. Backfired miserably. She also couldn't challenge Trump on populist positions because her corporate owners would've lost their minds.

Warren can tell Orangehead she's a true populist, then rifle through his tax plan and failure to create manufacturing jobs and expose how he isn't. Then she can put a bullet between his eyes by saying she's planning to give a $1.6 trillion tax cut to kids with loans, who'll actually spend it, rather than give it to plutocrats.

(In fairness, in many regards, the Trump tax cuts did assist the middle class. The expansion of standard deduction helped considerably. But Trump isn't fast enough to summon those facts on the dais.)

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I find it amazing that you think you're having different discussions.

No one is saying Trump isn't the legitimately-elected President. Absolutely no one. This is only happening in your head.

What people are saying is that he accepted help from our enemy and then obstructed justice to cover that up.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't know. The fed code is a Chinese take out menu as thick as a doorstop. If you want to find a way to assert someone committed a crime, there's a bunch of letters on paper somewhere in it for you.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm not sure Adder agrees. He suggested that but for obstruction, we might have learned information that rendered Trump illegitimate. He can correct this if he likes.

Here was the exchange:

Me: It's not a crime to bullshit voters.

Adder: It is a crime to obstruct justice. Having actively obstructed the investigation, none of us know what might have been revealed without the obstruction.

Am I reading too cynically in thinking he's suggesting there was some act taken by Trump beyond welcoming the Russians' bullshitting voters (which is all the Russian disinformation campaign really did)? Maybe. Or maybe not. And what would that "other act" be? In the context of a discussion about how Trump and the Russians worked to win the election, there seem to be only two ways this could have been done: (1) Disinformation; and, (2) Actual vote changing. The latter didn't happen, but Adder seemed to be suggesting (he walked it back later) that obstruction may have rendered us unable to learn of the latter... which is loony.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think the point he is making is that if the witnesses weren't instructed to lie and stonewall, and they actually cooperated, evidence of criminal conspiracy (the equivalent of what we all think of as "criminal collusion") would have led to actual criminal conspiracy charges (or provided a clear path to impeach based on that evidence).

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

That's entirely possible. That's a reasonable position.

Too often, however, that argument, which speaks to how Trump and the Russians manipulated voters, is used as a basis to assert his election was somehow invalid. These are two different things. If Trump committed a crime by working with Russians to spread fake news to gullible voters, the crime is the technical violation of a statute. The manipulation of voters is not a crime. Nor is there a fruit of the poison tree argument to be made. What the voters do, based on whatever rotten manipulation is applied to them, is their choice and theirs alone. If Trump and the Russians can bullshit you, you deserve to be bullshitted. Good for them, bad for you. (As to the bullshitted Trump voters, not those who knew what he was and wanted to elect him.)

This is an important distinction because if we allow the argument to take hold that because voters were underhandedly manipulated, Trump is illegitimate, then:

1. Voters are off the hook, and not responsible for their actions;
2. Which invites an argument about whether we should apply rules to what voters may see and not see, or worse, who may vote.

Number 2 is taking place in the EU right now, where some countries are taking action to shut down "fake news." They've effectively infantilized their voting public -- deemed them too dim to know what's best for them. We have too many tools for this sort of soft electronic totalitarianism here. Imagine if the officious twits in DC who think everything can be fixed with simply more regs or laws decided to start regulating "fake news." You can throw freedom of speech right out the window. And the right and the left would abuse such laws and regs with abandon.

The voters are at fault for Trump. There's a portion of this country, a damn big one, that likes him and what he says. Those who argue the Trump voters were all mere dupes do nobody any favors. That they're lying is obvious, and this lie invites a curtailing of free speech that should scare the shit out of every American.

People have a right to lie to voters, and that right is sacred to the Republic, and voters have a duty to educate themselves or be duped. No nannies. No censorship in the name of "fake news prevention." We are not the EU.

Re: I'm on a roll
 

I literally don’t recall when last I saw or heard from Biden (was it the debate?). A candidate who does best when he he’s avoiding attention sounds like a problem. Nominating Biden is the closest possible replay of 2016. I don’t share your confidence that the outcome will be different this time, especially because Joe not meaningfully better at connecting with people than Hillary. Is not being a woman enough?

Of course, he’s also not a Clinton, but I don’t think 45 will have any trouble painting Joe as an establishment insider.

I just don’t have any faith that the white people you have in mind will pick any Dem over 45’s racism. We need someone who is selling more than “let’s go back to 2015.”

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yes. Are you dim?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I was ignoring your nonsense. Bcs it is self evident nonsense.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

So agreed but I think the Dems in charge are too full of themselves to see this.

Is it wrong? Of course, we should be making these decisions on merit. But. We. Need. To. Win.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

There is pretty much universal agreement that we need to win the disagreement is how.

Maybe the old white guy who nobody really liked until Obama picked him is the way, but I’m not sold.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think the key is persuading swing voters, like working-class whites in mid-western states, to vote for a Democrat. I think it's about tapping and motivating Democrats to turn out. Ideally, a gifted candidate does both, speaking to swing voters one way and the potentially disillusioned in another.

BTW, this exchange is one you see moderates and progressives having. I don't see it that way. A progressive like Bernie could bore a lot of people into staying home, and a moderate like Harris could inspire a lot of Democrats.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

If obstruction "succeeded," how would you ever know?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

"That's entirely possible. That's a reasonable position. Instead of responding to it, I'm going to write a long post responding to something stupid that no one is saying."

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

A man of color has been able to convince midwestern white people to vote for him IIRC? 2016 overly educated dems decided third party was the answer. You lot need to straighten that shit out.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hope and change, yes. Go back to when things weren’t so bad, no.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You have my vote, Hank.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Look, I'm head in the sand- I don't know what all he did with Russia- other than they met with Russia and asked for (or were offered) help- if the help isn't illegal what is the difference from just asking for help from another gov? Did Trump et al sign on to Russia hacking the Dems?

I do know this- a shit ton of people are of the mind set that Trump got elected because Russia interfered, but if you ask what exactly Russia did they don't know. And what I think Russia did is convince people like them (maybe actually some of them) that voting for Hil would be a waste. That is, people posting about how stupid Trump supporters are don't realize educated Dems were the ones fooled.

I'm not weighing voting for Trump- Hitler could run against him and I'd vote for Hitler, thinking maybe he's at least grown over the years. But I want to know facts, and i don't.

And in this whole shit storm the thing that everyone has to do is learn to distinguish FaceBook memes from facts- cuz FB memes gave us Prez Trump it seems.

Early on in Trump's time a FB meme started up "Ivanka granted Chinese Trademarks, Trump grants China something or other." And when people I know
posted it, I'd say, "you know, Trump is evil and I would not put it past him to sell us out, but this isn't it. If you give me $1500 I'll get you a Chinese Trademark. They hand them out, they aren't enforceable, but I can get you one. Keep focus on the actual bad things and dismiss this one." But no one wanted to hear it. They all knew Trump was selling us out.

If thinking people dismiss a Trademark attorney, whom they know hates Trump, telling them this, what will make them think about the shit thrown in 2020? We need people, as many as possible, to question.

I do not really know what all the report said Trump agreed to- if it was just asking Russia to fuck with Hil on social media- and that is somehow actionable, please tell us how, cuz Sebby keeps asking that. And asking Russia to help fuck with Hil on social media, while nasty, doesn't seem different than asking Israel's PM to write a letter supporting em. On the other hand, if Trump asked for a different level of "help" can someone let me know?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't need your vote, I need $10,000 so I can funnel it to where it's needed.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It succeeds all the time. It was a large part of Frank Quattrone’s case.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Adder walked it back, but if you gave him support, he’d argue Trump’s obstruction concealed proof that might’ve shown the vote count had been hacked.

And my last post is a guess where I surmise much of the left and right want to go. Trump’s too dumb to curtail free speech. His opponents and their analogues on the right aren’t.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I walked nothing back. You assumed that I was engaged in your nonsense when of course I wasn’t. As usual, you were talking to no one else.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Trump won the game legally by engaging in the mother of all hacks. He worked indirectly with a foreign adversary and, legally, he won.

That burns the shit out of people. Understandably. They want it to be illegal, to be disqualifying, to somehow be different from the sleaze the Clintons themselves engaged in while running.

Politicians do these things. And worse. The only difference is this one does it openly.

Only a group of lawyers would find this offensive. From a business perspective, it’s just like Uber’s model — ask forgiveness later rather than permission before, and assume the price of bending the law to what you desire a cost of doing business.

Trump’s simply post-law. He just doesn’t understand that. Dumb fuck stumbled into it.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Uh oh.

I'm unemployed. I just hang around all day on internet chat boards.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Like I said, it was a response to a bunch of crap that no one is saying.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

The argument that we can never know if there was successful vote changing by Russians (effective and material hacking, mind you, as opposed to hacking in Illinois, where Hillary won) because Trump obstructed (despite Mueller having used the broadest possible powers to investigate Russians for hacking and indicting twelve of them for it without finding any link between them and Trump) is pretty dumb.

The argument that it's just a matter of time until we find the Russians changed votes (elapse of time + ??? = a finding Russians clanged votes) is a ticket to Crazytown.

If the Russians changed votes, Mueller'd have found it. That was just a matter of Mueller examining electronic data Trump could not preclude him from accessing. He didn't find it. He found attempts to do so which were ineffective.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Oh, the left is going there. In a few years, I guarantee people here will be arguing for a return to the fairness doctrine, and for legislation aimed at curbing fake news.

I'm actually sympathetic to the goal of the fairness doctrine, but I think it allows govt regulators to decide free speech issues, which belong before courts.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Then why did you initially argue that Trump obstructed justice and prevented us from knowing what the Russians did in a discussion about whether Trump's election was invalid as a result of Russian meddling? I think you put a foot in the water, and if you'd found support here for the argument that Trump obstructed us from knowing things that might prove he stole the election, you'd have run with it.