Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I have served on two criminal juries ("You see, Mr. Bueller, y'all ain't a VIRGINA lawyer...")

Criminal 1: Burglary of a 7-11, complete with tearing out the safe. Did the guy do it? Yep. Did the government prove it? No. Not at all. Further, it was clear the government had holes in what testimony that was presented. Not Guilty. I think I did help the jury make the decision on a formal legal basis.

Criminal 2: Driving without a license, which had been revoked because the guy was a serial driving imbicile. The defense: My girlfiend was driving. Prosecution: The cop approached the passenger side of the car after seeing the girlfriend climb over the driver. Guilty. Easy call for that fact, and others. But the jury did want to throw the book at the kid. I dug in my heels. No one had been hurt and we recommended the minimum sentence.

Obama: I want him on my jury. As plaintiff's counsel, I spent a lot of time suing white collar thieves for damages. I had the luxury of being able to pursue very strong cases where a jury could work up a pretty good sense of outrage. But it was work on behalf of victims, so I wouldn't mind a community organizer to help me along. Disclaimer: Most of my work involved non-jury trials.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

In my case, the defense lawyer was an idiot. He was a total asshole to the child/victim on cross, which was a big mistake and painful to watch. I wanted to jump over the railing and punch the guy. And the prosecution had super creepy video of the dad's interview with the cops calling his daughter's butt sexy. Ugh.


On politics, it seems the GOP is beginning its well-deserved exile in the wilderness, though I think this is also pretty close to what might have happened a year ago if the Dems had run Not Hillary. OTOH, the road to taking the House probably has to be a bit broader than through suburban soccer mom rage and they probably need to do something to appeal to the white working class that has still not turned on Trump.

What a crappy time to be alive! That tax plan is a complete joke, but fortunately I don't think it will pass. What has the world come to when I'm pissed at the Republicans on the Ways & Means Committee for defeating a Democrat led amendment to leave in the adoption tax credit? If the Dems could turn back the clock on their position on abortion by a decade or so, I'd probably become one.

Re: Beige 5
 

You're never going to get that unbelted time in your life back. Never. And the memories of seeing your belt slowly move into the x-ray screener while you pathetically held up your pants with your hands will last a lifetime. A thousand lifetimes.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You're always welcome in the party, we got a big tent, but I don't think you'll change the consensus among Dems on choice any time soon. I've watched my wife, as we watch more people working through tragedies as we age, move well to the left on the issue from her Catholic upbringing, and I think that's true of an awful lot of people around Catholic Boston.

How about a tax plan that raises Trump's taxes and lowers taxes on earned income from working people? Maybe one that has a single rate for dividends, capital gains, and earned income, set in a way that is overall revenue neutral, to just shift the burden away from people who work.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

what does this mean? Their position changed?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are part of a demographic that could permanently alter the dreadful stalemate on the abortion issue. Right now the abortion issue is an intransigent litmus test for both parties. The party that does not make this the be-all and end all issue could benefit substantially. I don't see any universe where the Republicans change their position one iota.

Put another way, the Democrats have to find a way to attract at least some of the Catholic vote for which abortion is a genuine and sincere issue. Hillary's mantra, while based in principle, was "safe, legal, and rare." A better one would be "unnecessary."

Sure, Catholic doctrine opposes birth control. But Catholics practice birth control just like everyone else. So the candidate that proffers concrete, funded programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies specifically to make abortion unnecessary could say, in effect, that "I'm doing what I can; join me in the big tent that is the Democratic Party."

In tightly contested districts, I ask the forum: Would this be enough to move the needle?

(I am far less sanguine about the efficacy of adoption programs as a practical solution, for any number of reasons.)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

"Safe, Legal, and Rare" is a more palatable position than "Unfettered Access at Any Time at Taxpayer Expense"

ETA, there are pro-choice Rs. Given the recent turmoil over whether the Dems will even back or fund pro-life candidates (which they will, *for now*, continue to do), I think it's only a matter of time until it becomes a real litmus test. Heck. if the Democrats could even give up on the taxpayer funding aspect, I think that would go a long way.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'd like to see the following survey among American Catholics:

(i) The Church's position on birth control is:

(a) Exactly right
(b) A bit extreme
(c) A total joke


I think (c) would win in a landslide, and (b) would still elicit a multiple of the votes of (a).

You'd have trouble finding people who support it outside of a gathering of the men of Opus Dei, and perhaps even then only if you limit the group to the over-70 crowd.

Re: Thanks Obama!
 

In your case it would probably depend on the size of the caulk.

Re: Beige 5
 

All because that showboat Kenyan had to announce in advance that he had jury duty.

Re: Time for a Crash
 

Washing machines and cars are not robots or apps or computers.

Tomorrow's robots are awesome. They are not a problem in the least. They will enhance our lives tremendously.

The problem is our economic systems and society adapting to the robots and tech.

Keynes envisioned a future where people only worked a day or two a week. We're quickly moving toward a society where that will be possible -- where robots and tech will enable productivity that allows us to enjoy what I think Kaynes called a "leisure dividend," or something like that.

The old capitalist system, however, is built on perpetual growth and increasing consumption. Growth in tech comes at a cost to growth elsewhere because it removes the need for labor to a degree far in excess of the jobs it creates. And this slows consumption in two ways. First, it weakens pocketbooks of would-be consumers. Second, it eliminates various forms of spending entirely.

On that second point, consider how many things you might spend money on but for your iPhone. Print media. Calendars. Video games. TVs. Cable subscriptions. Assistants (why hire an assistant when your phone can tell you where to be and what to do, and manage all of your deadlines?) Going to bars or restaurants to meet possible significant others (why not just use online dating?) I could offer a million examples of economic transactions that little computer in your hand eliminates and does not replace with other transactions of anywhere near equal value. But you get the picture...

In the absence of broad growth, we've seen debt, and a form of rentier capitalism (Hi Piketty!) take hold in this country. The old capitalist system is increasingly predatory, trying to find ways to squeeze more and more from a tapped out consumer economy.

It's not the robots' fault. It's an outdated form of capitalism exercising its last remaining leverage to mine profits for itself. Technological disruption is a natural and wonderful process. It's the financialization created alongside of it which is the problem.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't think you're right on this. If the question was:

1. The Catholic Church's position ON BIRTH CONTROLis:

a) Exactly right
(b) A bit extreme
(c) A total joke


Then I would agree, (c) would win in a landslide; the absence of seven children Catholic families makes that clear.

But abortion is different. A substantial number of Catholics would fall somewhere between (a) and (b).

Yours in lapsed catholicity,

Ferrets

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

That is what I said, birth control. On abortion, I think you'll find the whole range, but that wasn't the survey question I asked.

A big thing on abortion, though, is that I think the intensity of the issue has declined within the Catholic Church. There are still a substantial number of people for whom it is a litmus test issue, but that number is declining, and I think it is a defining issue for fewer people now.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

A and B are not valid responses from a rational, sane person. I would cease talking to anyone who held either of them (as I think it is every reasonable person's duty to do).

But other than clergy, who are not rational people, have you ever heard anyone offer A or B as a serious position? I've never heard any lay person make that argument.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

During our pre-cana, someone asked the Priest the question. He responded that people should talk to their doctor about Birth Control.

We were disappointed. We wanted to see the actual doctrine set out and defended. Because the right follow up question, once every is either laughing or looking utterly dumbfounded, is, "And the church's position on women priests is just as batshit crazy, isn't it?"

But it's my Church and I love it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Just because Flower has pointed out your prior uses, whether intentional or not, of irony, I thought I'd highlight this one.

Dude. You voted for fucking Johnson.

Re: Beige 5
 

It really boils down to this: He will distract the Jurors away from listening. One side will like that and the other side will not wan that. The lawyer for the side that wants the jury to listen will have a choice. Let him stay and be able to tell people you tried a case with him on the jury OR do what is best for your case and bounce him? For that matter if it is clear you bounced him, wouldn't the other jurors hate you from the start. No, there were far bigger issues and challenges at play yesterday than your silly belt problem.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's kind of hard to escape that conclusion given that we backlash against Trumpism we were hoping for/expecting actually showed up in VA.

I guess it's possible that it just took a year and Trump winning for people to realize that they really do need to go out and say no to this crap (and Hank's point about polling could be a factor. But it's hard not to think that distrust and dislike of Hillary was too.

There is literally nothing that can be done. They don't like Trump because they believe he'll do anything for them. They like him because he hates the people they hate. There's no appealing to that group without joining in.

That's not happening.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

How does one stick with Catholicism beyond third grade?

I've few early memories, but I recall as early as then, sitting through a service and thinking, this right here... this is some badly made up shit.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

That's why Griswald V. Ct is such a good intro to the abortion cases. You're reading your case book thinking NWTAF?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

When will "cognitive dissonance" be listed by Webster's as a synonym for religion?

Re: Beige 5
 

This is the dumbest thing you have ever said on this forum.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

No, because most opposition to abortion isn't opposition to abortion but rather broader disapproval of sex and belief that sinful sex should have consequences, including childbirth. Doing things that actually reduce abortions - i.e., education about and access to contraception - doesn't reduce any sinful sex and thus is not an acceptable abortion strategy. Also, the intended audience likely wrongly believes that contraception actually increases the amount of sinful sex in the world.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

3G: I misread your survey question; apologies. We agree that Catholics ignore doctrine on birth control. The evidence is irrefutable.

But Dems have to get away from shunning people like Robert Casey, the former centrist governor of Pennsylvania, who was ardently pro-life. Given how tight some of the races in rust belt states are, just a wee bit of flexibility...toleration...if you will... for pro-Life candidates could lead to more progressive government.

You agree to disagree on the abortion issue and you find common ground on preventing unwanted pregnancy. Then you move to the other 10 issues where you agree.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I couldn't stand either of them and figured she had it in the bag. That's not irrational.

After his election, when he announced he'd be doing infrastructure, I thought, "This isn't so bad."

Now? The only silver lining I'm seeing is, perhaps serious people will stand up and say, we have to start reaching across the aisles and compromising.

I think the problem is with Congress. Yes, Trump worsens things. But the R Congress and Obama were at war for eight years before. And I know your reply to that: "Obama tried to work with them initially." I said that same thing to someone who ran a department under Obama. This person's response to me was, "No. Obama didn't really try to work with Rs initially. He just did a very good job of making it appear that way, which was politically shrewd and effective."

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I can't agree. Sure there is a puritan streak. Granted. Some people think sex leads to dancing, too. But I think a substantial number of people draw the line in the sand at abortion, not at premarital sex. Move those people into the Democratic column, and the national map looks a lot bluer.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Re Catholicism, the prohibition on artificial birth control (they actually endorse using something called the Rhythm Method, which times a woman's fertility cycle) appears more a device to create more bodies to fill pews and donate. Mormonism is running a similar strategy at the moment with its emphasis on pumping out issue like rabbits.

It's a truly vile doctrine in areas where people are short on food and resources.

Re: Time for a Crash
 

Who do you think we get to leisure (if that's even the goal), without removing the need for labor? The whole basis of the Keynes prediction you cite is that technology drives the cost to produce human needs off a cliff.

It's probably wrong, but still, what you constantly leave out is that technology will make production cheaper (if it won't, it won't be adopted). You only consider one side of the equation. Even if it "weakens the pocket book" (it doesn't, but whatever), in your view of how the world works, it reduces the cost of what they need to buy.

Now you're concerned about a glut of savings that can't find productive investment?? In a world of technologic advancement? That's nonsensical.

Yes, you're advancing straight-forward Ludditism (is that a word?).

You mean in the presence of changes in our tax and regulatory systems and social programs specifically designed to create rentier capitalism, we've seen rentier capitalism take hold.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

NFP is not the rhythm method, btw. It worked to help us expeditiously conceive the Chicklets (and the pregnancies we lost). Preventing pregnancy takes a fair amount of care and attention, but can be effective for people who know what they're doing. Cervical mucus and basal body temps are pretty good indicators.

And I'm not even Catholic.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't think the abortion issue is primarily about Catholics.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

2. In every state where elections were held. The D ground game re-emerged.

I doubted this at first, but it is increasingly apparent to me. A third of the country has mentally seceded. We are in a cold civil war.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I myself welcome folks like Casey in the party, even though I disagree with them. I disagree with Bernie, for example, too.

That doesn't mean, though, either of them can have my vote in a primary or my money.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Exaggerated for effect: Just agree to a wee bit of oppression of women...

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm not going to get into the TMI area of birth control, but will just say, even among those of us who are "good catholics" the doctrine thing is laughable.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Every fucking issue is just about me.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What are we, in third grade here? Which of us needed the rhythm method explained?? ;)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I've always wondered, does one have to confess for a nocturnal emission? Oh, those poor guilt-riddled newly pubescents...

Suppose one is switching positions and happens to ejaculate while he's outside?

What if one is prone to premature ejaculation? Is his trouser stain a mortal sin?

And if a man spilling his seed is a sin, why does a woman get a pass for menstruation? Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

And I get that God is pretty patriarchal, but on masturbation, he's a pretty rotten misandrist. I mean, cunnilingus to climax? Fine. A hand job or a blow job? Sin.

What's the teaching on rubbing one at the fertility clinic in order to artificially inseminate one's spouse? You're technically spilling seed, but it's for a proper cause, no?

Oh, and if pre-marital sex is a sin, but you're doing it anyway, is it worse, or better, to engage in it unprotected? Is God kinda cool with you banging your high school sweetheart as long as there's a chance you'll knock her up? Is he doubly pissed if you use a condom in the act?

Catholicism is some seriously bizarre shit.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Trump Endowment Effect. It took having him as President for people to realize how much they really hate having him as President.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is nutso. No one likes abortion. Most opposition to abortion is, IMHO, opposition to abortion combined with a wish that there be a better way.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What country have you been living in? It's not a question of whether Democrats will reach across the aisle. They fetishize it. The question is whether Republicans are willing to compromise. Do you really see a silver lining there? Are Republican voters preparing to reward Republican politicians for bipartisan compromise?

Uh, no.