Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I see your point. But you’re doing something Adder doesn’t. You’re asking whether a bent against Chinese people informs a view of their products. He’s already passed judgement and decided it is entirely the reason for my dislike of the products noted. You’re seeking insight. He’s seeking applause, reinforcement of his judgment.

There is no insincerity or insecurity to be found in your criticism. That’s why I’ll address it without sarcasm.

I think it’s fair to say a lot of what China makes is substandard because it’s simply factually accurate. That’s not controversial. My clients and friends who do business there wouldn’t quibble much with that. It was Where You Got Stuff Built Cheap. Now it’s not so cheap. Economically, this means that products cheaply made a few years ago are even more cheaply made now.

They make parts for GM cars, and some GM cars entirely. Okay. You buying a Buick crossover anytime soon?

I buy only Japanese. It’s boring, but it works forever. My wife buys German. Over-engineered junk. I’m not driving an Audi with a turbo engine, or any car with a belt I’ll replace for $3k at 100k miles. Benz E classes are now 4 cylinder turbos. And I’ll never own another BMW, despite loving how they perform. Cars fall apart at 150k miles.

Toyota and their Lexus division? Cars run for 250k easily. No problems.

(At this point, Adder would perhaps cite Nanking as further proof I am deeply anti-China.)

Anyway, I’m not anti-China. My house is decorated in Chinese and Japanese stuff. And I’ve honestly not really thought about China much other than to suspect their foreign policy based on shit I heard from a state department fellow who knew some generals over there and said they’re Not Our Friends.

But no one should be our friends. They’re our rival. That’s okay.

But if you sell me a piece of crap HVAC unit, dishwasher, washer/dryer, and auto parts, it’s reasonable for me to say, you guys are making shit.

That you make great stuff in one area doesn’t undo making some real crappy shit elsewhere. If to note that that makes me a racist toward the Chinese, then so too is Consumer Reports.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Adder is, was, and remains a naif.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I really seem to have hit a chord with my complaint about Norwegian Pizza.

Let me stir this pot, then. There is great foreign food in many foreign countries. I've had really good Indian and Thai food in Iceland, some great Russian and Middle Eastern food in Paris, and really good Pizza in Denmark.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You don't think there is good Italian food in Sicily, so why should we trust this at all?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

There was some really good fish in Sicily.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

How can you not get it through your head that it isn't "passing judgment?" It's not an "insult." It's not pointing out a personal flaw.

One of DiAngelo's very first points is that racism is everywhere and we're all living in and shaped by a culture that is steeped in white supremacy. We have no choice but to be influenced by it. Our choice is what we do about it.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I want to see Iceland. A sibling did ten days there a few years ago and raved about it. (Penis museum, unfortunately, took up an outsized number of photos sent to me... and all I got as a gift was vodka and brined shark jerky.) A friend went to a bachelor party there recently. I guess it's a destination for such things. The landscapes look amazing, and I like the idea of pulling over on the roadside and hopping in a hot spring.

My last pizza abroad effort was in Dublin. This is not recommended. Even worse is eating anything in or around Sligo or Ballina.

The acid reflux keeps me on mainly protein. The steak tartar with cognac and lox are good in Amsterdam and Norway. This is probably because they are good almost everywhere.

DC is the best eclectic food town, IMO. You can get everything. I've no frame of comparison, but have been told the Ethiopian food there is world class. Makes sense given the huge Ethiopian population there.

Foreign food = Possibly the best argument in favor of more immigration. You'll never see the "Puritan Diet" as a trend. It'd render one suicidal.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You might've done better to pass judgment on my spelling it with an "e." There you'd have drawn blood.

Your second point was something I almost pre-empted in my post, because I knew (I knew it) that's where you were headed. That race is an omnipresent fact does not mean all statements have racist components. And also, Diangelo took assiduous pains to focus on racism toward blacks. I won't say her arguments are directed exclusively to racism against blacks in America, because I don't think that's true. But what I am certain is true is that White Fragility cannot be applied to white/Chinese relations in the exact same way it applies to white/black relations. Blacks in America sit in a unique position. The Chinese were treated horribly during railroad building booms, but it's not the same thing. The racism applied to black people here is not the same as xenophobia applied to the Chinese.

Also, when Diangelo says that racism touches all things, she does not say it controls all things. She's saying it's in there to an extent, always a component. But how big? Could be huge. Could be small. It depends on the situation. You're arguing that the entirety of the criticisms of some Chinese goods accrue from racism. In your bizarre reasoning, no one can criticize Chinese goods (or goods from any country, really) on a basis other than, or that does not include in overwhelming amount, racist bias. That's not a sustainable argument. You're taking Diangelo's constructs and running them to absurd ends.

I don't think highly of Chinese appliances. This is not me being racist. This is me criticizing the country that makes most of the appliances I am compelled to buy. I honestly don't know how not to criticize the Chinese when critiquing appliances. They make almost everything!

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Got to see Iceland. I started using it as a stopping point to Europe a few years back, when travel was hard for me. A few hours to Iceland, a day or two there relaxing, a few hours to London or wherever. Reykjavik is a wonderful small city, it is book and cafe crazy, and has a busy port, and the countryside is just mind-bogglingly beautiful.

My favorite food cities are Montreal, San Francisco, Athens, and Shanghai, but, then, those are just among my favorite cities for lots of things.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This is strange to say, but Kauai and Maui remain my favorite food cities. (I've not been to SF in ages, and I know I'm missing out.) On the desert side of Kauai where no one travels there seems to be nothing but poke huts. The best raw seafood I've had was in dirty hut on the roadside in Kauai, where I wondered if I wasn't trifling with some form of food poisoning, but it was amazing. Still the best I've had -- better than toro at Bond Street, which is a solid second best. (Don't recall Morimoto... only the upstairs in Philly, after many drinks.)

My in laws and my best friend recommend St. Petersburg. Hermitage is supposed to be amazing.

I think I'm in Athens next year. (I don't book the trips, I just follow as led.) I imagine the Greek diet will suit me well, given I eat seafood about five days a week as it is.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You should know that I'm only skimming these.

I think your (and the people you paraphrased) general dismissal of Chinese products is not the result of thoughtful analysis and likely stems at least in part from common stereotypes about China. If you're telling me that you've thought about it and sincerely don't think so, fine. Of course you can tell better than I can.

But when your response is a lengthy, defensive screed, it doesn't really suggest that you've thought carefully about it.

You're also arguing with things I did not say.

ETA: Regarding appliances, it was a very long time ago now, but back when I was involved in a notable appliance deal, few were made in China. Have the Korean, American and European brands moved production off shore?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

One of the great things about Athens are the nights. Go to a museum that closes at 10 or 11 at night, then go to dinner and hold the table until 1 or 2, there will be people on the streets and cafes and bars open for a nightcap.

The variety of greek food shouldn't be overlooked, as well as all the other Balkan / Middle Eastern / Russian / French food in town. But there are great little fish shacks and places where you can get some gyros with halloumi and the meat and cheese come from the families' farm on Crete. The best places are the humble little joints you come across along the way.

Re: Rome
 

this is my favorite travel review series of all time.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Come to Houston. You will eat well.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Just want to jump in to let you know that Halle Berry did something interesting today.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Did she have the extra toe removed?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think you have mistaken my last post as some sort of agreement with you. Adder is most definitely an ally. He clearly cares about these issues, is thoughtful, and is vocal about his support. I am talking strategy with him.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I've read this "sentence" many times and I have no clue what you're trying to say.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

https://media0.giphy.com/media/26ueY...BAM8/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/XD4qHZpkyUFfq/giphy.gif

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Was it the wet T shot?

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

She definitely removed something.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Yes. I too am pro No Bra Club.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It's a great movement.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You suggested several white men read a book about how white people handle race issues. I read the book. I was then posting to suggest maybe you giving Sebby a pass because he read the book was not indicated. It seemed an odd thing for me to advise you how you might want to treat Sebby, so that was the "whitesplainin" part.

Or do you mean the prologue part? To me, when DiAngelo got called out was the biggest lesson. It sort of echoes some 12 steps thought of "yes you've been through the steps once, but you have to check your behavior for each step each day." It isn't just knowing how white people dismiss/deflect and trying to educate them, it is applying those thoughts to what you do every day.

You read things differently?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

He's not thoughtful. He's just pointing at everything he sees and crying "racism" or "misogyny." Diangelo might as well have not even written her book if one adopts Adder's positions. Why think about the issues in depth when you can just throw an accusation at every single chance you get?

Why bother writing a book that actually had the capacity to change some of my views, and I think would change a whole lot of white people's views (I have already recommended it to conservative friends most in need of its message)? If you don't need to make the case and you can, as Adder does, just accuse racism in regard to everything anybody says on the grounds its omnipresent, why bother to read DIangelo's careful and persuasive text?

Adder's a naif. He may be an ally, but not one I'd want.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I try to be an ally.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You're the guy who sees a fire and would rather talk about how terrible it'll be when everything burns than do anything to put it out. The truth is, you enjoy the damage. I'm not saying you're an arsonist, but you get excited watching stuff burn, and you're bored by the prospect of fire-fighting.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

But not offering support?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It was creepy when ggg made a sexy post, but for you/me to try to glom on? I would like to take this chance to apologize to all whose tuitmal.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

In the last week I've stopped feeling schizophrenic when I see this sock. Now it's more of a wistful nostalgia.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

For everyone here, but especially TM since we were arguing about Dems turning out the base vs. persuading marginal voters:

https://www.salon.com/2019/08/17/thi...2020-forecast/

Maybe she's wrong, but she reinforces my priors so clearly she must be right. Here's a bit of it:

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I am amused at policy blunders, that’s true. The law of unintended consequences ensures entertainment in the future.

But here I’m actually criticizing the fire fighters. First, you’re not really fighting fires. Pushing policies that eliminate jobs and then offering the victims a pittance isn’t fighting anything. If I take a hundred dollars from you and give you twenty back, I’ve helped you how exactly?

I’m in favor of free trade. This means I am in favor of allowing the market to eliminate lower level jobs, allowing firms to increase profits through decreased labor costs. This takes money from the lower level workers and gives it to investors. It’s a transfer.

That is a fire I have helped to assist burning. I am actually somewhat of an arsonist. So are you if you are in favor of trade policies that allow workers to be replaced by cheaper foreign labor.

I am not absolved of this because I support another policy that gives pittance amounts to these now unemployed and unemployable workers. Nor can I escape it by expanding health care for them.

I’ve made a choice, as a member of a class above these workers, to have the wages they previously enjoyed transferred to people in my class — to investors (including a lot of undeserving baby boomers), to skilled workers near the tops of corporate hierarchies, to bankers, people in P/E and hedge funds, etc.

We’re arsonists. We’re choosing to let a global market do as it will to those at the bottom of the ladder in exchange for more profits to those at the top (at or near which level we reside). You seek to make the argument that throwing some crumbs back to the losers is a policy light years away from just letting them fend for themselves. I see a very thin difference between those policies.

Warren
 

This already happens to an extent, but not enough:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...th-warren.html

The country needs more of her thinking, as Biden’s VP.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Does she believe that President Obama was elected?

If I posted on a page where I was the only one who predicted what would happen in the last election, I'd hope I'd be smart to ask me, instead of posting my own inane blog posts, but that's just me.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Sorry, what?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hey just popping in to say hello.

For the record, I have at this point abandoned the label "conservative" and given up the fight that Trumpism isn't conservatism and conservatism isn't racist. I am basically a socially conservative libertarian at this point. I am hoping that Justin Amash runs as an independent becauase as nauseated as I am with the GOP, the Democrats appear to be insane. I might have voted for Hickenlooper, or Delaney maybe, but none of the front runners.

Basically I have come to the conclusion that a significant plurality (not a majority, but maybe 40%) of the GOP basically is really racist, and they put up with the build a wall farce because it's really all about being able to shout "Send them back!" at rallies.

I left the GOP in 2016, but the Democrats offer me nothing, so basically I am part of the lonliest minority in the country.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

q.e.d.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I’m surprised she’s not a member of SAG.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Isn't she squished against a window? Can you really tell?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think different parts are more important to different people. But now that I see what you're actually saying, it makes perfect sense to me. I support this message.

TM