Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Just because you disagree with his conclusions doesn't mean he isn't thoughtful. And you should know that he's right about race way more than you are.

Did you take a look at the Times weekend section relating to race this past weekend? I haven't read it all yet, but they are taking a look at how slavery and racism has impacted every single aspect of American life. Are you saying they aren't "making a case" because they won't approach the topic in a way that speaks to white people in a way that makes them comfortable?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...a-slavery.html

Must be nice. I value all of our allies.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

In what year does this sock finally realize it's only been funny like, once?

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I never thought it funny even once.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

"I don't know why Nancy Pelosi, the DCCC or many of these moderate members are convinced that moderate Republicans crossed over and voted for them. I have the data for some of these districts and the data tells a very different, very clear story: If Republicans voted in huge numbers, they voted for Republicans."

I'm sorry, but this is almost completely non-responsive to my point.

I do not think the big victory will be in winning over moderate Republicans, although I think there are clear gains that shouldn't be overlooked in the places I mentioned (OH, PA, MI). I think the gains to be made are with moderates of all stripes, independents, and off-again, on-again voters. The fact that both Obama and Trump won the 3 states I mentioned is significant and it doesn't speak to just turnout.

If you think Hillary lost those states because the core Democrats didn't show up in the necessary numbers, you're crazy. White people voted for Trump. Let me repeat that. White people voted for Trump.

Those white people, whoever the fuck they are and whichever party they voted for in 2016, need to be made to feel comfortable. They may be uncomfortable enough to stay home this time--and if that's the case, then yes. Turnout is crucial. But I don't want those assholes sitting at home because they just can't pull the lever for a black person, a woman, a gay man, or a Jew.

I also don't want them staying home because we need white people in states in which the Dem Presidential nominee may have no chance, but which might flip in Senate race. If you think McConnell loses in Kentucky with Harris on the Dem ticket, you're smoking crack. How about Collins in Maine? This shit matters.

Again--and this can't be repeated enough--if your progressive candidate loses and you don't vote against Trump in 2020, you are not fucking progressive. You're a piece of shit.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't disagree with all of his conclusions. But he's run Diangelo's argument to an absurd conclusion. Are there times that a comment about Chinese products is based in racism? Yes. Are all comments about Chinese products based in racism? No. Are they all based in racism because racism is omnipresent? No. A thing can be omnipresent, but not a factor in certain circumstances. He's arguing he has the right to assert that all criticisms have a racial component. Diangelo did not say that. She said racism can be a component of any expression because it's everywhere. That's entirely true.

Adder could have asserted that a percentage of the complaints I cited about Chinese products were borne of racism. That'd be a statement with which I'd agree. But he didn't say that. He said they were all racist and then mangled Diangelo's argument in service of that assertion. He's too blunt and too general, which I take as the opposite of "thoughtful."

Huh? I don't even know how to respond to this.

I did see the 1619 Project. I was talking about it this weekend with two friends. We actually wound up talking about White Fragility as a result of one of them raising the project. I recommended the book. The person who raised the 1619 Project, a foreign policy and fiscal conservative/social liberal, recommended reading 1619 as it's rolled out.

I'll put it bluntly. You discussing this stuff? People will listen. Not because of your background. Because of delivery and analyses applied. I think you're interested in understanding the subject in depth and trying to fix what of it can be fixed. Adder? He's too Javert, too blunt and generalizing. Too "purist." People will write him off as some lightweight throwing around extreme and naive arguments, as someone else here has done.

TM[/QUOTE]

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

We are aligned. I have taken the step of following the "No Bra Club" on social media. One must do all he can for the movement.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Here's what I think WF does most effectively. Prior to reading it, I was sympathetic, from experience in criminal justice system and work on project development in that area, to the general argument that black people are treated as second class citizens and preyed upon in many regards in many of our systems.

But I'd not considered the more subtle ways in which racism cancers our society. I'd not considered all of the overlooked transactions and interactions in which race has an impact.

And I'd certainly not considered the argument about white narcissism in the white women's tears chapter.

It's not a book about a monolithic thing. It demonstrates that racism winds its way into our lives in endless little ways. This is important because it undoes the broad defenses of white people ("we're post-racial," etc.). That informs a lot of my annoyance with people who make blunt arguments about the subject. It's not math. You can't argue, "X years have passed since Jim Crow, so racism is over." Nor can you argue, "Race is everywhere, so all things said about a certain group are necessarily racist." They might not be. You have to assess things granularly, as does Diangelo.

The complexity of this enormously complex issue has to be admitted to tackle it. Getting into an "is too" vs. "is not" argument about it impedes understanding. What people ought to be talking about when they talk about racism is the myriad little ways it impacts victims of it every day.

I can say this with great confidence: Most white people have no clue about the white narcissism discussed in that book. Not even close to a clue. It's completely normal for them to discuss race without even thinking maybe they should include a black voice in the conversation. I don't know why it hasn't been written recently, but a very short book, or even just an article, from a black person starting with, "Here's a week in my life. I'm going to just go through the week and sketch out the instances in which racism has impacted me. Let's start with 'Chapter 1: Monday'" would be hugely eye opening. Diangelo comes close to that, but can't really get there because she's writing from second hand perspective and basing a lot of her points on group discussions.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Hello. Glad you're not among the total bat-shit looney ones. May you find what you are looking for - perhaps in another country though, because "socially conservative libertarianism" sounds like a bunch of people wanting to be free to oppress other folks.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It sounds like an oxymoron.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Please cite where I said either of those things.

Let's do a quick run through. I said that generalizations about Chinese products are likely racist.

You responded with a lengthy, defensive rant and said I was "passing judgment."

I responded by trying to explain, again, that we all do, think and say things that are racist, because it is everywhere, and it's not a "judgment" to acknowledge it when we do.

And then you rambled some more and I stopped reading closely.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

The white people who voted, voted for Trump. Her point is that Democrats won in 2020 by increasing turnout, not by persuading marginal voters.

Maybe what you're saying is, the fact that Clinton was a woman made people uncomfortable ()and we can't risk that again)?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

While it's fun to talk about Adder like he's not here, I'm going to make this the last post about it from me.

I think Adder is in a place where many people of color have found themselves. When you constantly see people of color being treated differently, it's hard not to see. If I were Adder, I would have pointed out that you may not be seeing what others can from their perspective. I'm not sure I think that stating that the Chinese make crap is based on race and not the fact that government oversight and regulation for businesses isn't what ours is. And I'm not sure the focus on the negatives (hell, lead-laced baby formula is what sticks out for me) means you're racist. But here's the difference:

When Adder said that you tend to focus on the worst stuff when it comes to Chinese goods when they make amazing things as well, I didn't automatically throw up my hands, walk away from the conversation and call him a naïf. I thought about the way I was thinking about it and tried to reconcile my thought process with the possibility that I was overgeneralizing. You should do that to. Being forced to go through that thought process shouldn't elicit immediate disdain and dismissal.

The NYT has devoted a large amount of resources this past week to showing how race permeates everything. Adder talks about how it permeates everything and actually applies that thought process to our conversations. The point I'm making is that as we all learn more about the extent of the impact of race in everything we have done and continue to do, Adder isn't as out there as you make him to be.

Cool enough. But there's no such thing as a fiscal conservative/social liberal. The support required to implement social policies requires resources. So anyone who calls themselves that is surely full of shit.

I think you would actually do better to discuss this stuff instead of throwing up your hands and talking about how people like him who focus on this stuff and talk about it a lot are the reason why we have a racist moron in office. Because that's absolutely fucking ridiculous.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude, this happens all the time. That's the point of the book. Whenever we talk about an experience, white people find a way to say that the person probably isn't racist.

A senior associate walked into my office today and told me that when he was in the Boston office, he was holding the door for a secretary. They had a friendly exchange and the secretary asked him if he was there to fix the printers. Now, in my mind, there is no way around the racism behind that question. But I guarantee if I tell that story to 80% of the people at this firm, they will find a way to not make it racist. We stop telling you this shit because you don't fucking hear us. We are too fragile. You seize on the term "micro" in "micro-aggressions," and dismiss it. You label it PC. You say, "Why is everything always about race with you?" Etc. That shit is exhausting. This is what the book is talking about. You don't need a handy fucking diary in the life of a black person. You need to listen and be open to understanding what we're saying.

And I'll tell you this: Adder is.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Uncle.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

My comments about Chinese products are not racist. Many of those I've owned are built badly and break quickly.

I cannot speak to whether other complaints about Chinese products are born of racism. Nor can you. Neither of us know.

Do you nevertheless contend my comments are racist?

Do you contend the comments I cited about Chinese products are all racist?

Do you contend that every comment critiquing a foreign product is in some part racist toward the people of the country in which it was made?

Do you think the fallowing can be said without involving any racism: "Chinese appliances suck. They break easily and aren't well built."

Is it possible that, even if that last comment is wrong, it is born not of racism but of generalization?

I'm not doing this because I'm fragile. I'm doing this because your thinking is fragile. And it should be adjusted. Because your thinking is what makes white people write off smart thinkers on racism, like Diangelo, as cranks. You coming off as naive and extreme allows people who'd listen to a thoughtful argument to say, "Oh, these lefties are all fucking nuts. Can't deal with them."

You need to stop seeing racism in every corner and shouting it. You need to instead argue racism is omnipresent and can be an element of anything. But isn't always, necessarily, an element of everything. Sometimes, a guy just dislikes Chinese appliances.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm not arguing against micro-aggressions. I actually have adjusted my thinking on them. Diangelo made a solid case.

BUT, the fact that you are properly exhausted every time a white person denies racism does not mean:

1. Every critique of a foreign products is racist toward the country it came from; or,
2. Where racism is not present, the allegation of it should nevertheless stand without denial.

Adder said I was racist toward the Chinese. And so were the people who commented on Chinese products being built badly.

Untrue. I based none of my dislike for Chinese products on feelings toward Chinese people. I base my dislike on have had bad experiences with the products. Period.

Adder is throwing accusations and then hiding behind the argument, "If you disagree with me, you're proving fragility." Nonsense. I would totally agree with you that the instance you cited above regarding the copier repair is racist. However, the instance in which I said Chinese products are not well made? I assure you, it is not based on racism. Should I just stand quiet and let Adder spout off? Illogic is bad. It is always bad. And he's got it coming out of his ears here.

I am understanding as to what you are saying. That was my point. You are not Adder. Adder is making abstract points that are logically indefensible. You are making logical points dovetailing with the logic of Diangelo.

ETA: Under Adder's crazy extension, criticisms of Russia based on election interference, despite being valid, are also, strangely, racist toward Russians.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I agree I was overgeneralizing. He could have said that. He didn't.

I agree that thinking about how race is omnipresent is the best course.

There are a lot of people who call themselves that. This person wasn't full of shit. If he were full of shit, he'd have dismissed 1619 out of hand, as many conservatives are doing.

I am open to discussing the stuff. I think a discussion of the myriad ways race impacts our society is worthwhile. It's also fascinating. Bluntly asserting "that's racist" to everything, however, is dumb. I don't like dumb.

Talking requires thinking. Developing a doctrinaire and purist approach to this topic, or any other, as Adder has, precludes useful conversation.

TM[/QUOTE]

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

As I said previously, if you've thought carefully about it and come to that conclusion, great.

When we know a thing is ubiquitous, it is not a stretch to conclude that it is likely a factor commonly held beliefs.

Okay, back to a weird diversion that would probably only come from me: are you sure you've ever owned a Chinese-built appliance? Because unless you're buying Haier-branded appliances (or a few other even smaller brands), you're not.

As to whether it is possible to make that statement without any racist influence, yeah, probably.

You're doing the very thing described at length in the book but no, you're different.

Dude, if someone says, "hey, maybe that's racist" the thing to do is stop and think about it. After having done so, you might decide that your don't really think it is but maybe you'll find a different way to express the thought to avoid that impression. Or maybe you'll decide it's fine.

When you instead insist at length that it isn't and that the person who said it is attacking you, you're doing the White Fragility thing.

Nope. We white people need to be shouting about it a lot more.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You need to stop seeing it as an accusation. Diangelo acted in a racist way to the web designer. Diangelo is not a racist.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Macs? Or are they not an appliance?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

1. Correlation and causation? Synonyms?

2. If a thing says made in China, I’m inclined to give it benefit of doubt. This is w/o considering how man components of things w/o that label were made there. As to comments of others cited? I can’t speak for them.

3. Then why immediately assert that you know the cause?

4. Here’s an abuse of Diangelo’s argument. By this illogic , you may assert racism is the cause (which you’ll walk back to “one of many possible causes” when cornered) and any disagreement is immediately invalidated. This where you and TM part ways. He’s arguing that it’s exhausting when white people try to find any cause but racism. You’re saying you are free to assert a cause of something and any disagreement with it is invalid. That’s absurd as applied to ANY subject.

5. You didn’t say “maybe.”

6. I did think about it. I thought, “Do I dislike the Chinese? Has some view of them made me xenophobic?” I realized no, it hadn’t. But I do admit that anger about their products caused me to overgeneralize. I should have excluded certain of their electronics along with some suits. Not all of their stuff is cheaply made.

7. I’m prone to view any illogical argument as an attack. It’s irritating. I don’t care what anyone says to or about me or any subject we’re discussing, but dumb and naive drive me nuts.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

The really hard part when this stuff happens is understanding what to do about it. 90% of the time, if I was talking to the associate who had that story, they'd ask me not to bring the complaint any farther because they're afraid they'll get flak for saying anything. And you can't bring it anonymously because figuring out which minority is involved is usually pretty easy to figure out, or at least narrow down to two (which means they'll both get flak).

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I think you are mashing up some shit right here- you effectively implied everything from China is shite- trust me- I spent a few years working for the most popular toy in the world- China makes a lot of shite- but it also makes some solid stuff. So to say "all Chinese appliances are shite" is an over generalization that treats the Chinese as a monolithic group that only makes shite- racism is assuming X1 does Y because X2 does Y, isn't it?

I'm not sure how DiAngelo got dragged into this because it seems a more obviously clear issue than what she wrote about?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You can extend my comment to generalize about China as an economy and a governmental system. That’s fair.

But not the Chinese as a “race” or “group.”

I mean, you can do it, but it’s dumb. If we’re going to have honest conversation and discuss where bigotry is present, that necessarily involves telling people who see it where it clearly isn’t they’re being dumb. Adder is being dumb.

However, I should not so overgeneralize in the future. If I’m going to badmouth a manufacturer on certain products, I should also note where it does a decent job.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

How was he dressed? If I see anyone in a black polo and khakis I assume he/she is there to fix the printers or do some IT type work. I probably should not assume this but my brain does it before I can stop it.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude, if you can't admit that the HVAC guy and the guy at Best Buy are likely walking around with some anti-Chinese stereotypes, I don't know what to tell you. But you're still going on about it.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I took him to be talking about household appliances, not consumer electronics, but don't know for sure.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I guess I was wondering what you meant when you said appliances aren’t really made there. It sounded like you knew something I didn’t know.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Not to state the obvious but a senior associate from the NY office had reason to be in the Boston office. Close to 100% he was dressed according to whatever is dress code for attorneys at T’s firm?

Am I whiffing?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It's 2019 - do big law firms still have dress codes? I see plenty of lawyers showing up for depositions in polo shirts nowadays in the summer.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if the comment was made to anyone wearing a suit.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Any detailed knowledge I once had dates to 2005/2006, but as of that time the largest producer of appliances sold in America was Whirlpool (Maytag, KitchenAid, JennAir, Amana and MagicChef brands, among others). Much of its production is/was in Benton Harbor, MI and elsewhere in the U.S. (Arkansas maybe?). No production in China.

The next largest was GE. If I recall, they had some Mexican production, but otherwise did their production in the U.S. None in China.

Others included Electrolux (Frigidaire), produced in the US (maybe some in Europe but I don't recall how much was imported).

Primary imports were LG and Samsung, both from Korea. I have vague recollections that maybe Samsung had or was going to open production facilities in China, but I'm not at all confident about that.

Those companies make up pretty much all of the consumer appliance manufacturing for products sold in the US (they also build anything sold under the Kenmore brand) aside from a few minor players. One of those minor players is Haier, still pretty much the only Chinese producer you see selling appliances at your Best Buys and your Home Depots.

It's been a long time, and it's entirely possible they've done some offshoring to China, especially the Korean firms who were already shipping from overseas anyway but I believe Samsung has opened U.S. production facilities since then too. Or maybe already even had some back then (they had taken over all of the Kenmore microwave business but I can't recall where the production facilities were).

ETA: It's almost guaranteed that they purchase components manufactured in China, though.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Jesus fucking Christ, man.

Take a step back. I have been telling you everything that you read in D'Angelo's book for years. You push back on everything. Constantly. Incessantly. When we finally make a little progress, it's because a white woman wrote a book saying the same things from a white person's perspective. Then you write a post about how black people should outline a day in their lives. I tell you that I have done that very same thing with you constantly. You lecture me on what racism means and how and where it's present.

Can you connect the fucking dots on any of this?

Again, you need to understand that someone asking you to take a look at why you're saying the things you're saying does not mean you are a racist in the sense that you're taking it. Inspect what you're saying and be cognizant that some of it might be colored with preconceived notions. If it's not, make your case. But the point is to be able to have a conversation without turning the whole thing on its head by focusing on the fact that you think someone else thinks your racist.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No. The point I'm making is that it is impossible to be both. Anyone who says they are is either purposefully full of shit or fooling themselves. You can't be both.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Firm leadership should immediately make it clear that anyone who is present in our offices should be treated as if they are a client. I don't care what color they are, what they're wearing, what their gender is, etc. If it happened to this associate, it's happened to others. Be a fucking professional or work somewhere else. This is a place of business.

That's how I'd handle it, but we're a Boston-based firm, so we won't do anything like that.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

He was dressed in business casual attire just like everyone else. He was carrying a briefcase.

But he/I/anyone shouldn't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the assumption was ridiculous. Believe us. We know it when we see it.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Isn't this the whole point? If you see lawyers and clients showing up in jeans and polos (which he was absolutely not wearing), why the fuck would you ever assume someone was there to fix something? It's not 1995. Your argument cuts the exact opposite way.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I was just curious. I believe you.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't have an argument. I was just asking a question.

Maybe it's the type of casual outfit that I'm thinking of. Khakis (that are the actual khaki color) and a black polo always looks like a uniform to me. That's what I'm picturing in my head when I think of "printer repair guy".

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Not trying to be aggressive. Hard to make those comments come off as general.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Just looked up Whirlpool- it is largely still made in the States (Ohio, not Benton Harbor anymore, but still).