Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

We're in a moment when lots of stuff is coming out about all sorts of men -- left, right and apolitical. There isn't much political valence to it, except that it feels a little like a delayed backlash to the election of Trump after the ET tape. I do feel like it's organic.

And so far, I believe Franken's accusers and all of the others (that I can think of). One has to listen carefully to what they're saying because they say different things about different people. For example, I think Franken exercised poor judgment, but of a very different kind than what Charlie Rose did. Matti Taibbi may have been a misogynist jackass, but he's no Roy Moore. And so on.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

To my question of how many men are pigs.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

We all hate Moore, but do you seriously think the initial disclosure, and its timing, doesn't have political fingers all over it? The only evidence I see for that being entirely organic is she appeared a bit early. Parties usually don't want to pull those out of the hat until it's too late for the target to develop a defense/response that acquires some traction. Hence, "October Surprise."

The people behind the Moore disclosure want to hobble a candidate. Good on them. The guy's a Jesus shucking pedophile. But if you think the Dems will only use this stuff out of sense of benign service, you're being a little more than naive.

This is Bannon's playground. And the Dems needs to play in the dirt. taking the high road hasn't worked very well. Expect a lot more of this stuff.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Name an out of office politician who has done more for more people.

Then explain why what she's done while out of office limits what she might do as an elected official?

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

I think the Washington Post didn't have a reason to investigate until Moore had won the primary, and I think Alabama doesn't have local media to put the story together. So I don't think the timing is entirely a coincidence, but I also don't see any reason to infer from the timing that Moore's opponents were behind the story.

The same Bannon who is backing Moore. Right.

A friend of mine points out that that GOP is weaponing sexual harassment, e.g., the story about Franken in today's NY Post and stuff that Mike Cernovich just dumped with Gawker. So I was maybe too quick to dismiss the idea that there will be a political valence to it. But I'm not seeing any sign that Democrats are doing it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Not sure what that has to do with what I was saying.

For someone who was getting all huffy about lumping the Clintons, you keep trying to bring up Hillary when I've been talking about Bill.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

These allegations appear widespread and well-substantiated. It also doesn't seem like it was too difficult to find them. I think Moore has probably either coddled or bullied everyone within the Republican party so they didn't dare. A benefit of a two party system is the other party dares.

My view is if there is good substantiation it's not so much throwing dirt as a public service, regardless of party.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Where were you talking about Bill here?

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Yep. There will be dozens of these before the midterms, I suspect. PIs must be really busy right now.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

When wasn't I?

The whole conversation started with TM asking whether Bill got criticized in the way Obama did. I said, if I had the money that the Clintons and Obamas have, I could be a lot more selective about who I work for. The Foundation was really more Bill's thing until later, no? Yes, I said both Clintons plural and Obamas plural, but I wasn't really criticizing Michelle either. Later, the anecdote I used to criticize the Foundation was from 2008, long before Hillary got involved. This post clearly about Bill, not Hillary. The reference to Hillary's critics was to your leaping to her defense.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

I think there are a lot of women coming forward of their own accord right now, and it's unfortunate to look at their stories and assume that politics are behind them.

eta: Or Russians, for that matter.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

I think victims come forward when they see a reason to come forward. I don't think it [eta: the timing] matters much.

The victims would like to see the person who took advantage of them elected to the senate. That makes sense to me.

I think the Dems will make a political issue out of it when relevant. I also think that there will be Dems who out their own, which we've already seen, and that this is a highly relevant difference between the parties.

ETA: I also think the political fallout is the least important part of this discussion.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Agreed. You'll see in my initial post on this, I stated that a lot of brave criticisms are going to be lumped in with those of opportunists.

As much as it's important to recognize that Franken and Moore are not at all alike situations, in any regard, it's also important to separate the clearly political or cashing-in stories from those offered by women who just want to make a difference. The latter deserve some scrutiny, the former deserve to be considered exclusively on merits.

That may seem a harsh approach. But it's warranted. Because there's an even bigger accusation hurricane coming before 2018, and a whole cabal of Lee Atwaters and Gotcha Media types behind it.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Breitbart does.

Some do. But Franken's accuser? She wants nothing. Said as much.

Where the ugliness will erupt is between the Right Wing and the "RINOs." That's where Bannon and Co. are focused.

It is. But the broader discussion is pretty well understood. If you don't grasp that you can't walk nude in front of an assistant (Hi Charlie!), jerk off in front of fans (Hey there, Louis!), ass grab (Lookin' at you, HW!), jack off for the pizza girl while enjoying your shrimp cocktail (Yo, Brett!)... or brutally and savagely rape people and hire ex-Mossad to terrorize them from outing you (Bad Harvey!), you probably can't read these words.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Re understanding, a lot of men didn't understand just how pervasive this sh*t is. But the real issue is not understanding that the behavior is wrong. Everyone pretty much understands that. Glenn Thrush would make passes at junior colleagues and then tell his co-workers that they had made passes at him. He knew exactly what he was doing. The bigger problem is a refusal to acknowledge that a lot of people -- men, mostly -- understand that behavior isn't socially acceptable and yet do it anyway because it makes them feel better. Just as Adam Serwar's big article in The Atlantic describes how whites vote for and like politicians making racial appeals, but deny that's what they're doing or why.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

They are not at all alike if you, correctly, understand the issues to be about consent, coercion, harassment, and humiliation. They are alike if you, incorrectly but commonly, think that's all mumbo-jumbo and instead see them as being about "bad sex stuff" (i.e., all sex stuff that isn't marital, procreative sex). Bad sex stuff is bad, and all the worse because Al was married whereas Roy was single and looking for a young wife to give him babies, some of these people reason.

It's a similar dynamic to what happened with "grab them by the pussy." It wasn't the non-consensual touching that was the problem, I mean they're all lying and probably really wanted it anyway, it was lewd language, to this crowd. Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is.

I don't know how big it is, but there is a movement among wingers to argue that consent as the sole standard of acceptable sexual conduct is what creates sexual harassment and assault. Afterall, how do you find out is someone consents without asking, but the asking is itself harassment if there's a power dynamic. We need "traditional mores," the argument goes, relieve this tension. Nevermind that consent is a significant tightening of traditional mores as to what is acceptable and that traditional mores definitely did not work to prevent harassment when they were the only standard.

Basically, there's a non-trivial part of American society that thinks we are collectively having way too much sex. Yikes.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Don't be this jackass. The Post researched the guy since he was going to be a Senate candidate. They are much better reporters who care about a national story more than whatever local journalists put into it. The guy is going to be a fucking Senator. If that's not the time for accusers to reveal how fucking awful he is, when is?

Ah. I see. You are that jackass. Nevermind.

TM

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Yes, anyone seeking to dismiss the allegations does.

More power to them.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Yes, there are. But I also think there are a ton of settlements with confidentiality agreements in every single sector (I know of a few in my own area), and those women aren't as likely to come forward because of the confidentiality agreement. PIs/digging through financial data/court filings is the most likely way those are going to come out.

Related: what the hell did Bill O'Reilly do to generate a $32 MILLION settlement? That's not cupping someone's ass while posing for a picture.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Leading inexorably to the Pence Solution. No dinners with them, no drinks with them. The only way one can truly be sure no one's getting involuntarily grabbed by the pussy.

BTW, this line deserves applause: "Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is."

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

So your worry is that a former President is raising money for a good cause, but isn't doing it in the way you'd like him to?

Get a life.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Yeah, I have no interest in dealing with anyone adhering to the Pence / Old Boy Club solution. My approach is to just leave these people out of the equation. Eventually, not being willing to deal with half the world on equal terms is going to limit these moron's options.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

This, of course, is the $64,000 question.

Times 500.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

There was more than a little irony in my last paragraph there. I get your point. I had no idea it's this pervasive, and I've been involved in settling a number of these claims.

Occam would suggest a good bit of this is hormones taking over the brain of males with time on their hands and off the chart egos. It'd be analytical malpractice to investigate this as a purely social and entirely non-biological situation. It's not surprising to hear that Weinstein was generally abusive to both sexes in addition to being a rapist. And as one thinks back on the guys you've known who've engaged in harassment, three groups tend to appear:

1. Selfish geeks who cannot natively attract women (a lot of the Hollywood guys so far);
2. Douchebags;
3. Violent or deviant assholes (the kinds of guys who'd beat people up in high school).

Examples of A: Ratner, NYTimes guy, C.K.
Examples of B: Pivin, Franken, Besh
Examples of C: Weinstein, Toback

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you think that captures what I've said, then we can just stop there.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Remember when reporters like Charlie Rose and Glenn Thrush bristled at their reporting being described as sexist?

Time to kick back and have a nice tall glass of schadenfreude on the rocks.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

In the 1990s I was a young associate. I flew to DC monthly to meet with the Patent Office on several clients’ files. I’d divide travel expense across them, and since there were many I always bought 1st class. Turns out Congress was given free first class by Northwest, so I often saw Detroit area pols up close. They were a vain lot, shitty to their aides for the most part, and sometimes borderline retarded (Hi Barbara Rose Collins!).

I only saw John Conyers once. I hate his politics, but he was my ideal for a politician. The rest were on stage, unknowingly playing rats, but still on stage. Congers was with a 5 year old boy I assumed his grandkid. He was with the boy. Nothing else on his mind. Sweet guy?

It turns out he was married to a much younger woman and that was his son. And the wife later went to prison for corruption, but none of that was on him. I really thought he was a great man, politically misguided, but still. Sucks that he is in the same boat.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Well there you go. People say the debates around here are endless, numbingly repetitive, and never get resolved. Take that, people. "People."

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Pray for me, peoples. Spending Thanksgiving with the right-wing family members.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

The real question is why any plaintiff's lawyer with a fucking brain isn't doing looking for these cases night and day.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

so Bernie's not endorsing the guy who prosecuted the Klansman in the Birmingham Sunday case but wants to remind us what great things he did for civil rights in 1960s Chicago

Hmmmm.

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

Seems like the bigger problem is that Jones is not exciting Alabama Democrats who are black. Which is an important group of them.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I would guess, based on Lee Busby's entrance as a write-in candidate, that Jones will pull it off.

I could not in good conscience vote for either Moore or Jones, and would vote for Busby if I lived in Alabama, but I suppose the ideal would be if the Senate could be relied on to expel Moore. I think Moore's best campaign ad would be to go out with the message: Vote for me so I can be expelled and the Governor can appoint someone who's not a child molester. But then again, Nancy Pelosi probably gave him plenty of material for ads yesterday.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What's wrong with Jones?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yeah. It sure is crazy how Democrats are so irresponsible that they can get Republicans to vote for a fucking child molester. What you're saying is insane.

And I'm with Ty. I'm not sure they should be allowed to boot a Congressman for actions that have nothing to do with his service (or election) as a Senator. I usually avoid those ridiculous slippery slope arguments, but given how Republicans currently try to push legislation through without debate and how they stole a Supreme Court seat, they pretty much live here and it's only a matter of time before they start booting people for purely political reasons (and if they do it here, I think it would be 95% political):

https://laughingsquid.com/wp-content...show.gif?w=750

TM

Re: Here comes the waterfall...
 

I'm not getting that from my Alabama friends, despite what WaPo wrote.

We're talking about turnout in a special election. What I've been hearing is it'll be high for a special election. I haven't heard anyone predict that it will be the same level as a regular election, but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Good question.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Nothing I can see. Jones appears a pretty run of the mill moderate D.

However, this is Alabama, and he is pro-choice. So the yokels cannot vote for him, or any other “baby killer.”

It’s all about abortion. (In a state where population control would increase the national IQ by about three points.)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I thought the choice debate was now a distant third, behind guns and liberal tears. Am I wrong?

On the good news side, the trumpster family types I saw over the holiday seem to have all bred woke children, who are entering voting age. The kids don't understand their moron parents any better than I do.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Uber's core competency appears to be ignoring the law.