Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Shoot the bear and kill it or don't shoot. Democrats look like losers.

Trump looked like a loser with the birther thing. Which is why he walked it back. Obama was a winner. He wore it. He owned it. He had The Smile. Hillary was not.

Obama could kill Trump. He knows how to kill Trump. Biden may know how to kill Trump.

The media is filled with whiny losers. The same way the whiny losers at Fox could not undo Obama. Like it or not, Trump and Obama share that "fuck the opponent" swagger. Should we elect presidents on this basis? Probably not. But we're dumb animals acting more on instinct than we know. This is the playing field.

You don't have impeachment because you haven't been able to make a compelling enough case for it politically and in the media. If the GOP can reshape the system (which progressives also seek to do), you have to play by the rules enforced on you. When you win, you get to change the rules.

Is this a good way to run things? Fuck no. But as long as we have adversarial systems in control, this is the wrestling match we endure.

If you've money enough to matter, you're ahead of the tariff silliness. If it's hurting you, as it hurts me, you're a nobody. I'm a nobody. But I'm not missing any meals.

It is all related. And Hank and I have been telling you, why allow the media to be a proxy/whipping boy for Democrats? It's just fucking dumb. Drop this Russia shit and start focusing on how the Trump tax cuts favor well heeled r/e investors.

Chinese water torture works drip by drip. A wall is built with thousands of bricks. Trust me when I tell you, Trump is creating an impression in the Blue Wall that his detractors are insane malcontents. I voted for John Kerry in 2004 and was sure, among all my friends in Philly, that we would right the injustice of the Iraq War. I went to bed drunk and happy and sure the nation would know W was a reckless fool, based on what the media had done for the prior 4 years, and what it had done during the campaign.

I woke up pissed.

If you buy Ty's view, you may wake up seriously pissed in November of next year.

I'm not voting for Trump. I can't.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

no offense but you said this in 2016. Who you gonna vote for is the question.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Dude, you edited your post twenty minutes after I said I'm all ears.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't think there are any such people, and Sebby says the least sophisticated Rust Belt voter understands he's a con man. (I assume that by "least sophisticated voter" he means "swingingest swing voter" and if I were you I'd be calling him a dick for that, not me.) If you think there is a non-trivial number of such voters, then you and the rest of us respectfully differ on that. Either way, if those people vote for Trump because someone in the media got a story wrong, that's their choice, not a reporter's fault. Blaming the media for Trump's bullshit, which is what Sebby was doing, is barking up the wrong tree.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I ain’t sebby. You ain’t a dick but what you said was Dickish. Namaste.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

No. I mean Trump is so obviously full of it that it's impossible to be conned by the man. When he lies, people do not feel deceived the same way they do when the media spins and shades stories.

By the way, Fox is self-parody. Everyone knows they're propaganda and they know everyone knows. They're not deceiving anyone. CNN, the Times, WaPo, and the Journal hold themselves out as real news. When the Journal spins a story to the right, or the others spin it to the left, they're disguising advocacy as fact expose. This is a form of lying.

Bullshit. If a reporter runs out with a story quickly, recklessly, because he's excited that it will damage a candidate or politician, and he subsequently has to walk it back because it's not accurate or verifiable, he's responsible for the fuck-up, and for every bad result it causes. There are fact checking rules to be followed by reputable news organizations. O'Donnell is a silly advocate who trampled them, like Hannity and Ingraham do every night. CNN has had to walk back several "scoops" on Trump's administration, and I think even apologize for a couple. WaPo has had to do the same. That Fox engages in lies all day does not give these people a pass to do the same. Unless they wish to be considered unreliable advocacy networks, like Fox, which indeed is the public perception of them. So yes, the "journalists" are the problem here.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I could vote for Biden or perhaps even Warren. I will never vote for an ex-prosecutor and corporate hack like Harris.

However, if Biden runs out with some crazy plan that fucks up my family's business interests, I'll stay home. Warren's plans so far do not do this, so she seems safe. I'm happy to see her tackle Wall Street, overhaul bkcy law, and give the millennials debt forgiveness of some limited sort (if that's possible) as it would be stimulus. My exposure to that sector suffering losses is minimal. And single payer could actually make us money.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You should edit most of yours to change "conservative" to "populist."

Biden is the conservative, traditional candidate this cycle. Trump is a populist. He is not a conservative. Trump is classically liberal, interventionist, willing to upset norms.

I know this upsets the framework you use to preach about one party being reactionary and one party not being so. But, well... facts.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm always entertained by how identity works in America. Trump is a traditional conservative, his jingoistic nationalism is right in line with the icons of the right, Goldwater and Reagan, his approach to civil rights is, too, his economics are really not far off (cut taxes and all else follows), his court appointments look identical .... he's just even more of an asshole and a moron than they were, which is why conservatives try to redefine conservatism without him.

Dr. Frankenstein, meet your monster.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Sure, but a journalist's story does not "cause" someone to vote for Trump. They decide to vote for Trump, with the full awareness that he is a con man.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Trump is what conservatism is now. You are using a dictionary definition that no longer describes the conservative movement. They have voted with their feet. And if you're going to describe Trump's party as populist instead of conservative, aren't you acknowledging its reactionary core? Do you think Trump is about preserving anything? "Make America Great Again" is definitionally reactionary. The policies on which he has the strongest instincts -- immigration, trade -- are not "conservative" in your sense in the slightest.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

This is beyond stupid when some lefty purist says it. What's your excuse?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You guys aren't even that far apart. You include in the universe of people those who may vote for him because even though they may have heard a bunch of awful, terrible shit about Trump, an inaccurate (or not completely substantiated news report) negative piece on Trump may influence them. You think that number of people may be significant or maybe just not de minimis.

Ty and I are saying, (i) people--even low-information ones--who can be influenced to believe that everything negative (and actually substantiated) about Trump is made up because Lawrence O'Donnell may have jumped the gun on something are looking for anything to justify that vote and (ii) there is no way to avoid making any kind of mistake in a world of 24 hour-constant, unending news.

Ty and I are saying that you can't include the people who fall into my first point in your calculation. As to the second point, yes. I wish all journalists would be extra careful in their reporting. But acting like that's even possible and whining about how sloppy reporting is going to give this lunatic another term is just stupid, homie.

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You are insane. There is no point even addressing the objectively ridiculous shit you say in this post.

TM

Slate is catching up to Ty
 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-the-libs.html

TM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

It seems everyone has a slightly different definition of conservative. None are necessarily wrong, but they differ enough that the term really has no meaning anymore.

To demonstrate, my grandparents on one side were classic conservatives. They were in favor of low taxes and non-intervention in foreign conflicts unless absolutely necessary. They were not absolutist on anything. They understood the need for regulation but wanted it to be as minimal as possible while still effecting desired oversight. They were involved in finance, but my grandfather hated greedy people. I recall the old man emphasizing hard work and being quiet -- slow accumulation and no ostentatious behavior. Boring.

He refused to trade with people who treated their livestock badly. The idea of "conserving" applied roundly, to everything -- to not being wasteful or consuming more than you needed.

Those values are what I understood to be "conservative." This continues to color my view of the term. I think of conservatives as good stewards of resources, as reasonable people.

I fear your definition is probably now a lot more accurate than mine. But it's hard for me to get the old definition out of my head. It's hard for me to see these interventionist, activist people who don't really give a shit about individual liberty or "conserving" anything for the next generations as anything but dumb, reckless people who want to enforce their stupid rules on others.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I don't think populism is reactionary. I mean, you can see it that way, true. But isn't it really more insurgent? Trump's populism seems more Mao or Lenin than William Jennings Bryan.

Re: Slate is catching up to Ty
 

I think buying Greenland is an excellent idea. Too bad Trump screwed it up.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You are stuck on the idea that "conservative" refers to some set of intellectual principles or policies. It doesn't. Conservatism is whatever conservatives believe. It's primarily a tribal affiliation, defining itself in reaction and opposition to the rest of the country, and the ideas follow from that. During the Obama years, conservatism meant fiscal restraint, because conservatism were against whatever Obama wanted to spend money on. Now it means the opposite, because conservatives are spending the money. As Slate says, the core of conservatism is triggering the libs. Conservatism is in favor free speech when conservatives are speaking on college campuses and against free speech when Facebook and Twitter are running social media platforms. Conservatism is pro-law enforcement when police are stopping black drivers, and anti-law enforcement when the FBI is investigating Russian campaign interference. There is no intellectual principle involved.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Populism is a reaction to cosmopolitan elites. An insurgency is a form of armed rebellion. I can't think of a populist movement that has turned into an insurgency.


What are you taking? That is some pretty potent shit.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm thinking about it more broadly. You're assuming certain things as predicates. You and I can't discuss this issue, I think, because you require that I acknowledge that the GOP has "destroyed the entire system." If I don't accept that predicate, almost all of the rest of what you've written fails.

I don't accept that predicate. It's one of many causes.

You also assert that "three years of constant news of complete corruption and numerous fucking scandals, self-dealing, and favoritism to our fucking enemy" is proof of those things. It isn't. It's news about allegations of those things, and some facts that suggest those things are taking place. But has there been a court finding he engaged in self-dealing? No. Has he acted favorably to Putin? Yes. But has it been proven this is for some nefarious reason? No.

So your points there, which seem to be: (1) that we should all be incensed at this man; and, (2) that anyone who isn't incensed at him is willfully ignorant or complicit in his awfulness, are based on your views. You seem to think no one has any valid reason to disagree with your view that Trump is awful.

But they do. And they can. And unless he's convicted of something or impeached, it's just you and everybody else who hates him telling everyone who doesn't, or doesn't care, how they must think. If you don't understand how this alienates voters on the fence, I fear you might be insane.

I think you're entitled to your opinion. But I think your opinion, that every criticism about Trump should be turned up to 11 and the media should continue to act aggressively as possible in attacking him is smart policy is actually unwise and counterproductive.

Don't be so certain about what you think you know. This is how you wound up with 2016. I knew Hillary was going to win. I was not humble. Hank was the only one who said, "You might be wrong." I suspect most of us made fun of him. Who was right?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Non-political question for all of you: I'm trying to hire a paralegal. I'm surprised by (a) the relatively low quality of the applicants, from what I can tell, and (b) how many have or are in the process of getting law degrees from poorly respected law schools. Are there a lot of people with fourth-tier law degrees working as paralegals?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

The guy is gutting the govt. This is not reaction - this is an active effort to radically alter our course and future.

He's trying to rip apart the established systems from inside. I was looking for superlatives because, well, even I fall into using crazy analogues when talking about Trump. It's hard not to do so.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You mean he's trying to "starve the beast"? Where have I heard that before?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I appreciate your hyperbole, but changing the government from the inside is not an insurgency.

The differences with Mao and Lenin are far greater than the similarities.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Actually I believe Thurgreed was sharing some "this is going to be close" stuff on the old FB. Trying to get those non-voters to vote and get the third partiers to not.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

NYC/political question- my wife and I were talking about going to Jean Georges- she really doesn't want to go anywhere near a Trump building or its businesses. I'd not go to a Trump restaurant for a lot of reasons. But JG rents and can hardly be blamed for not moving out now that Trump is fully ugly.

T/Icky/GWIN any rule of thumb about stepping into a building that happens to rent from the man?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

News from the Biden front, fwiw. (I wouldn't read too much into this, but it relates to stuff we've been talking about.)

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

You didn't ask me, but I wouldn't have any qualms about going to an independent business that rents its space from a Trump organization.

Need for Chaos
 

One of Ty’s points, thru a very dark lens: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/o...ers-chaos.html

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I focused on NYers because I asked the same question on FB and got lectured from Atticus's friend from Berkeley. Most of the businesses in Trump Tower I have no interest in walking into. JG is not a restaurant I'd got to frequently, so I have never thought about the question- probably most NYers have never really thought it through?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I just hope everyone in Alabama is going to be alright.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

People in Berkeley have an obligation to lecture the rest of us regularly, or they have to turn in their Party ID card.

Also, this explains some of my posts on the early boards.

Re: Need for Chaos
 

That's an interesting article. One question it prompts for me is, when people like that talk about "burning it all down," what do they mean? I think very few of them mean that literally, so what *do* they mean? I suspect it's the violence of rhetoric rather than the rhetoric of violence -- they thrill from saying such things. Also, I think the article talks a lot about social media, which really just means that anyone can publish stuff now that other people can see, instead of needing an expensive printing press or broadcasting license -- i.e., the supply side -- but it misses the demand side -- that the technology powering Facebook and Google and others lets you choose how you're informed, and a lot of people would rather get information that makes them happy than information that is accurate or new to them.

Re: Need for Chaos
 

I suspect it's people who feel like if the systems were erased, they'd have a chance to succeed. I think this thinking runs alongside conspiracy theories because both provide people with a narrative about why they haven't gotten what they think they deserve out of life.

Like Little Bill at the end of Unforgiven, they've not yet grasped that randomness is a big part of life, and "deserve's got nothing to do with it."

I think a sense of fairness infuses a bit of it. That's where the Bernie and Warren people meet the Trump people. They all feel like there is something unfair in the system. They're right. Show me your zipcode at birth, and I'll show you some pretty solid odds on where you'll wind up in the social hierarchy.

This is why I think Warren, and anyone who talks "fairness," has legs.

Mix this up in a stew with accelerating income inequality and you have a delightful powder keg of crazy.

But wait... I'm not done yet. Because here's what I think is the most important connection this author overlooks: Evangelical obsession with apocalypse. Evangelicals love the concept of "end times," of catastrophic events changing humanity. All the kooky Old Testament horseshit. The biggest link this writer missed is between the Need For Chaos crowd and the Megachurch Crowd. There's a direct link between the people who want to burn it all down and the tens of millions who made books like the Left Behind series long running best sellers. Rotating the connections between evangelicals and NFCers is beyond my pay grade. Some anthropologist needs to do that analysis. But I do know that's a significant connection, and this article needs a follow-up linking the two. Because this might explain Trump's evangelical following.

And it might explain why religious types with political leanings have started calling Trump an "imperfect vessel" from which biblical change will emanate. (I'm not kidding... I've heard that from a few devout conservatives.)

We've only begun to scratch the surface of Trump Nation, Bernie Nation, perhaps Warren Nation, I think. But I suspect these factions will align more in the future as inequality accelerates even more. I'm a bit afraid of it. I don't think the alleged "elites" have control anymore. I think they're buying land in New Zealand for good reason. And the one silver lining in a "burn it all down" scenario - grabbing assets cheap and making outsized gains when the govt props everything up to save the economy - might not be available next time around.

Then again, as Lemmy said when given a terminal diagnosis, "Fuck it... I've had a good run." Never be greedy. We've all been quite lucky. Mathematically, statistically, insanely lucky.*

______
* On top of what's stated in the following quote, we happened to be born in the wealthiest nation on Earth, and found ourselves somewhat near the upper echelons of its hierarchies:

“We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here.We privileged few, who won the lottery of birth against all odds, how dare we whine at our inevitable return to that prior state from which the vast majority have never stirred?” - Richard Dawkins

How dare I whine I might have to drink a lesser gin, or eat second tier lox?

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I love the people who show up nude at city council meetings and just scream crazy shit.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

Watching Joe Biden on the climate town hall. This man will not hold up to the devil. We need to move past him.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

On the one hand, I wouldn't have any qualms about going just because they rented from Trump. On the other, I'd be kind of worried about who I might run into - you don't want to end up having to talk with Alan Dershowitz or something.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I'm increasingly thinking this is the case. I'm uncommitted as of yet, but I think it's looking like it will be a choice between Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren.

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 

I am also starting to think that Harris's moment is over and it's going to come down to Biden, Bernie and Warren. Among them, Warren is an easy choice for me.

But there's a long way to go.