Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Those are problems we still have on our hands. All of us. That we weren't involved doesn't undo the fact that, if we're Americans, those are problems with which we'll contend. Racism and religious idiocy are still very much with us.

No I'm not. I'm saying the institution has a problem on its hands. I specifically denied that it caused the problem.

I agree. That's why I said Islam is not at fault. But this doesn't mean it doesn't have a problem on its hands. For whatever reason, as the Catholic Church attracted pedophiles, Islam is attracting bloodthirsty lunatics.

No, he wasn't. He was saying it's okay to be wary of certain people based on those characteristics, until they've proven such concern is unwarranted. I do not agree with him there, but I also do not see that as rooted in racism so much as paranoid logic.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

You fucking little pest. I incorporated the caveat that Blacks are targeted, and that the system seeks to jail them - which... wait for it (and insert Lewis Black exasperated affectation here): Explains the fucking disproportionate crime rate!

Can you read, or does the little, "I have to say something in opposition here" gene that rules your brain take over in every instance?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Oh.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Well, looks like a lovely shitstorm, and I'll come back later and try to engage along the way, but am dealing with another lovely shitstorm, so have limited time today.

But let me pose a little question, and I'll caveat it by saying I got no gripes with anyone here at all on race and nothing is intended to imply so. Here's my question. The thesis apparently is that Islam is bad to the bone, worse than any other religion. How do we test that? Do you look at places where Islam coexists with another religion, and see which is worst? If you do that, you start weeding out issues that, for example, might relate to being an oil autocracy as opposed to what religion people practice. So, say, if you look at Israel and the occupied territories - do more Jews die at the hands of Muslims or more Muslims at the hand of Jews? How about Bosnia or Kosovo? India, where you've got the loony Hinduvatta to offset the loons from Islam? Each is a place where there is a virulent strain of violent radical Islam, but each is also a place where there are some other very bad people around who belong to other religions. There are other cases, as well, but let me say, I don't see the clear pattern here that one would expect if Islam is truly especially evil. Indeed, I don't see a pattern relating to religion at all in comparing those countries.

Let me know if you see a better way to test the hypothesis.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

So, to sum up, it seems that each and every one of us here believes that it is okay to criticize the problems occurring in any one religion with the understanding that it is clearly ridiculous to paint the entire religion with that brush of criticism. But we're hung up on Bill Maher because sometimes he:

(i) crosses the line and doesn't make it sufficiently clear that he recognizes that 99.99% of those practicing Islam aren't a danger;
(ii) wants to debate the significance of polls that suggest that a large number of muslims are okay with some shit that we may find problematic; or
(iii) thinks that it seems more reasonable to stop an armed Arab man at an airport to verify that he is not a threat than to treat everyone like a potential terrorist?

I think the third point above is ridiculous given the wide array of races that adhere to extremist ideas, and he and King set up the issue in a way that doesn't make much sense other than to be provocative. I can easily disagree with him on this and not ignore everything else he has to say for all of eternity.

In fact, I do this all the time with people I actually know. You should hear some of the shit people I think are otherwise good people say. I (sometimes calmly) let them know that I don't agree with the ignorant bullshit they're spewing, but I don't eliminate them from my life. I'd rather they hear another perspective and think about it from my point of view than just shun them. Hell, lots of people end up changing the way they think about things when they have access to someone with different ideas.

In Maher's case, I think because of his ego he thinks his mission is to change other people's minds, but he's not closed off to changing his. He has the conversation regularly. And in many cases I've seen him move away from an opinion towards a different one--sometimes over time, sometimes based on a convincing argument. Isn't that the point of any of this shit?

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Just to add to this, you have these two Canadians recently who converted to Islam and then killed soldiers. Naturally, the coverage calls this Islamic terrorism. But doesn't it seem more likely that you have a couple of individuals who are troubled in some way that doesn't have much to do with their religious views, and that whatever is driving them is responsible both for the conversion and their crimes? In the same way, troubled young men in this country engage in mass shootings because that mode of acting out has been modeled for them.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Being a loser magnet is another of Islam's problems. Again, not the religion's fault.

But it's also a recognition from which we can address the real problem here: That hopeless young men are using a religion as a basis to kill in large part because of US policies, and their own corrupt governments, which rob them of the ability to have productive lives.

However, if we are honest about the reason these men are desperate, Wahhabist Islam and other fundamentalist variants used by vile regimes like the Saudi Royals are a major cause.

But then, that too comes back to the US. We prop the Saudis, the Saudis keep the masses in check with Wahhabism. Logically, we then support the thing that's been used as doctrine to justify attacks on us.

Like Islam, we've got a problem on our hands. Only we caused ours.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say this is one of Islam's problems. Are you saying that something intrinsic to Islamic beliefs is attractive to troubled young men and drives them to violence, or are you saying that Islamic leaders, like the CEOs of gun companies, have a PR problem with troubled young men use their product to kill people?

I was just talking about Canadian converts to Islam, but I don't think you have Ontario or Quebec in mind when you talk about their corrupt governments. Agree that religion can be the veneer on other problems, but if so, why talk about the veneer and not the underlying structures? If you have termites, you don't change the wallpaper.

Please explain. Fundamentalist Islam is a major cause of what? How?

If you took Saudi Arabia and changed the religion to Judaism or Lutheranism, would it really make a difference? Why do you think the religious beliefs are the cause rather than a symptom?

Re: Is Bill Maher Satan? Discuss.
 

I'm not sure I understand the point of this exercise. Let's take a look at Bill Maher, who seems to be the source of the confusion.

* Bill Maher thinks all religions are stupid because followers believe, without any evidence, that there is a force that is invested in and sometimes controls what happens with people.

* Bill Maher thinks Islam is the worst of the religions because of all the reasons above plus he thinks it is most likely to be used by extremists to justify some truly heinous shit. And he constantly wants to discuss why some muslims who aren't considered to be extremists support some of the extremist's heinous actions.

I don't think anyone on this board thinks Islam is bad to the bone. I don't think Bill Maher believes that either.

I think that religious fervor is to blame for lots of crazy shit and the more looney you--meaning an area or a state--get about religion, the worse it is for the people who live there. That applies to any religion. Because throughout the course of history, it seems fairly clear that people who want shit to be the way they like it will use religion to justify it. And the more isolated religious people are, the more extreme and the less tolerant people get.

My current theory on why shit is so bad in this country has to do with the fact that so many areas outside the cities and suburbs are so heavily religious and intolerant that people who have any sense at all move to be with more open-minded people who don't believe the Bible is literal or gays should be converted or other races were put on this earth to serve you. The more those people leave those areas, the worse those areas become. At a certain point the lunatics way outnumber the sensible and the sensible are then actively driven out. The schools become churches, the textbooks are re-written, the laws change, and it starts looking closer to what we imagine when we think of the craziest Islamic theocracies than it does to what we imagine as America. Sprinkle that with some oil money, place some other hyper-religious group that you disagree with the next county over, and grant easy access to weapons, and you've got the places in the Middle East that are the most oppressive and/or dangerous.

TM

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Sure,they were nuts. But even in that example why move to Islam? Why not turn Hassidim then kill? Your last sentence seems to acknowledge at least a perception that as Muslims the acts will curry favor. And for those with reading problems- I am not saying the Islamic conversion made them killers. But they seem to have some belief that there is something in the religion that appeals to them.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Israel is a bad example as it is an active conflict. The better test there might be "who follows truces better?" (and I'm not taken a position on what the answer to that question is) Can we relace it with ISIS exterminating sects in Iraq?

It isn't the religion and most Muslims we would meet (in the US) are divorced from the rabid. But there surely does seem to be some nuttiness in some other places.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

A few things:

1. What is it about Islam that drives young, pissed off men to become radical Muslims who want to commit acts of violence in the name of religion, especially if they are in Canada or the US?
2. What is it about Lutheranism that does not attract young, pissed off men to become radical Lutherans who want to commit acts of violence in the name of religion, no matter where they are located?

Surely the answers are heavily complicated and cannot be achieved without studying how the religions evolved, geo-political history, who is currently manipulating the religions and why, why young, pissed off men are drawn to some things in some places and not others, etc.

TM

smile!!!
 

One of the reasons I like to bring my thurgreed sock here from time to time is to see libs fighting each, and telling each other how bullshit their arguing styles are. The very same things I get called a troll for pointing out about the apparent logic problems and, frankly, synapse gaps that several of you bring to your arguments you point out to each other.

My favorite exchange ever was T and Ty arguing Yankees/Red Sox and EVERYTHING I had ever pointed out about Ty's style, T mentioned. It. Was. Sublime. Surreal.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

Without really knowing the details, I think you had disaffected men who both turned to an extremist strand of Islam and killed people because they were disaffected. I don't understand the "as Muslims the acts will curry favor" point. Favor with whom? Do you think those two were really motivated by a desire to score points with Jehovah? With Islamic radicals elsewhere? I can't rule it out, but I doubt it.

As to your question, why radical Islam instead of radical Judaism, I think that's like asking why teenage mass-shooters keep using guns instead of derailing trains or driving cars into people or devising novel ways to kill a bunch of people. The answer is availability. If you're a disaffected idiot in Ontario, you're more likely to know about radical Islam as an outlet then Hassidism.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.
 

I agree with that they came to whatever involvement they had with the religion murderous and crazy. My only question is why they thought there was a benefit to them in joining the religion.