Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I couldn't agree with this article more. Democrats are holding themselves to a standard that doesn't exist outside of their bubble. The Franken allegations are shitty. But he's actually worked in the Senate to improve things for women. Shouldn't there be a measure of punishment that doesn't amount to removing a voice who has proven to be on the side of women so that we can maintain moral superiority over a party that doesn't give a fuck about morality at all? Are we trying to lure the assholes who voted for a man for the most powerful office in the world despite hearing him admit in his own words to assaulting women with that moral superiority?

Or should we understand that there are degrees of misbehavior, find an appropriate punishment, hold that person responsible for their actions, and keep those who have shown they are willing to actually fight for women in a position to continue that work? We're trying to defend against right wing assholes who want to conflate Moore with Franken to score political points with people who can't tell the fucking difference and won't vote for a Democrat no matter how "clean" we make the party?

Sebby is right. This shit is ridiculous.

TM

This is the type of garbage that we're dealing with
 

Everything this woman says in this interview is horseshit. People whose vote tracks this woman's thought process (whether genuine or intentionally disingenuous) cannot be won over. They are fucking morons. We need to stop trying to figure them out and roll directly the fuck over them.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2...ues-sot-ac.cnn

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

We were doing that when it was one allegation. It became unsustainable when it was another allegation every week, especially when you factor in the assumption that there were likely to be more. Seems like he's just low-grade handsy. How do the Dems get anything, even basic messaging, done when there's another staffer or constituent saying he grabbed them every few days?

Resignation isn't really punishment. It's stopping the political bleeding.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There were a bunch of people on the left who acted like Mitt Romney was literally Hitler for the binders full of women thing. He managed to advance women without grabbing their asses and didn't get any credit for that. Cry me another river about Franken being held to an unreasonable standard. And it's so great that 3 weeks ago several Democrats decided that Bill Clinton probably should have resigned. When the GOP's "War on Women" is your major narrative, I don't think it's unfair to be held to a higher standard.

My description of the Conyers III situation was in no way misleading, and I was aware of the exact same facts you were. But how about we all agree to pick candidates that don't attempt to rape children, or sexually harass their staff, *or* get in violent domestic disputes? Is that too much to ask? Too high a standard?

I left the GOP and literally burned my voter registration card 4 months before the Access Hollywood tape came out, and gave it my all to try to defeat Trump in the primaries and at the convention (note that Cruz was not one of my exceptions from the garbage people of the GOP). I don't think you'll find me anywhere arguing that Trump and Moore are worthy of any public office.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Let me fix that for you:

It's nice to think that we are somehow empowering Trump, but that's false. He was empowered by the people who voted for him last November, and he is enabled by Republicans on the Hill who don't want to stand up to him and who are happy to take what they can get in return. Your sentiments function as a sort of placebo lollypop that you can suck on for a little while to make yourself feel better. Once it's gone, Trump is just as "empowered".

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I missed that. Can you show me one?

eta: Romney's "binders of women" was like Clinton's "deplorable" -- a faux pas because each said something essentially true, but in an awkward way politically, and was then attacked more for inauthenticity and having a tin ear than for being wrong.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It’s a grossly disproportionate punishment for what Franken did. It’s intellectually lazy and knee jerk.

I expect better from the Democrats. It can’t call itself the party of thinkers and then engage in a zero tolerance witch hunt and dispense preposterous summary punishment.

This was a moment to lead by example, to criticuze “pendulum” thinking that leads to political and policy overreactions.

Instead, they just removed an essential voice in the Senate. It’s maddeningly stupid.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Here's Axelrod making a directly Nazi comparison: https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/sta...46985970302976


See also : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ce695ca34d8f

It's a shame when you blow all of your "Republicans are Nazis" ammo at Mitt Romney, of all people.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is the problem. What do you mean how do we get anything done? Are you talking from a practical standpoint or a political one?

Practically speaking, you carry out the investigation, unearth all of the allegations, address them, and decide on a punishment that is appropriate given the level and number of offenses. Are we saying that we can no longer function because there are 8 women who said he grabbed their ass? Can we not determine that he can be punished within the walls of the Senate (remove his name from bills, remove him from committees, have him attend sexual harassment training, whatever else is appropriate) and move on? He's a Senator who actually fucking cares about moving the ball forward on feminist issues. That shit is all out the window and he has to resign? I don't think so--at least not based on what I've heard of his behavior.

Politically speaking, I'll say this: Fuck the right. I don't give a fuck if Huckabee et al says Moore should stay if Franken stays. Those assholes are going to justify keeping Moore no matter what the left decides is appropriate. If we can't determine that what Franken has done is nowhere near what Moore or Trump has done, then we're fucking doomed. Because (and listen closely), anyone who voted for Trump after hearing him talk about assaulting women and seeing victim after victim be ignored is not going to run back to the Democrats because we have proven moral superiority by kicking Franken out.

If we can't get messaging out because Franken touched another butt 8 years ago, then let's just give up.

Bleeding from where? Who are we losing if Franken didn't retire and we actually put a thoughtful punishment in place? And who are we losing them to? If they leave to go to a party that fucking funds a child molester's bid for Senate, we had no shot at keeping them.

We run around like our heads are on fire trying to be all things to all people. If Conyers was exposing himself and touching people while in office, boot his ass. No problem with that. But if we can't determine that what Franken did, while somewhere on the same spectrum of wrong, doesn't deserve the proverbial death penalty, then we need to rethink what our goals as a party are.

If I were in charge of the party, I'd push for a proper investigation, figuring out a punishment that fits (and maybe the investigation reveals that he should go), carrying it out, and would have absolutely no problem pointing my finger at the other side and saying they're shitty people for getting behind Trump and Moore. That's not hypocrisy.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's almost like we didn't just lose a "there's no difference between the parties" election.

Also, your fix is nearly exactly what the next sentence you didn't quote says.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Again, it's not a punishment.

Assuming for the sake of arguments these words actually mean anything, which they don't actually, how? What's the politically viable way to both take accusations seriously and not be repeatedly hammered over the head with your inaction on them, much less continue to be subjected to additional allegations?

Nobody's voice is essential, and believing someone's is leads to sending party money to a pedophile.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Dems have shit the bed. They had half a chance. Now every email is “give money.” Which I no longer do. Every dime I would give to a dem goes to a charity instead.

Re: This is the type of garbage that we're dealing with
 

What is her point in even giving that interview? Is one Moore voter watching Anderson Cooper? And anyone who is undecided can't possibly be moved towards Moore by this nonsense, can they?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are very careful to craft your message with words like "a bunch of people on the left" and "several Democrats decided" and then you paint everyone on the left with whatever you've cherry picked from those people.

I don't remember anyone saying Romney should be disqualified because of his "binders full of women" quip. It was a ridiculous thing to say and he was taken to task for it--especially given the reality of what was behind the statement and his history of hiring women at his PE firm. You're trying to elevate it to something it's not. Purposely. Same with the Bill Clinton argument.

Fuck off. If you were aware of the same exact facts and you chose not to mention both sides, then you're as full of shit as I initially thought you were.

"Don't get involved in domestic disputes?" Yeah. That's too high a standard. If someone is actually violent, I'm with you. If the cops get called because there is an argument and one person is defending themselves against the other who is actually armed, should they be precluded from having a political career? Of course not. You want everyone to read into it that he's some sort of abuser. I don't know him. Maybe he is. But based on the article I read about the incident, he could very well be a bigger victim than the woman he was arguing with. And no, saying that isn't the same as disagreeing with "We should believe women who come forward with claims of harassment."

Nice try. No one is arguing that. You're arguing that both parties are awful because you can't stand the left. You are incapable of looking at the two sides and making a determination that on harassment, race, sexism, hypocrisy, whatever, the side you're still on,* voter registration card or not, is way fucking worse.

TM

*And maybe it's because you just hate the left, but what difference does that make?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think it would be fair to do what you propose. I would actually have been ok with Franken staying until after the Ethics hearing were completed. Heck, Farenthold is using as a defense that he was cleared by the bipartisan House Ethics.

The thing that pisses me off most about Trump is how his defense of Moore is based on "Well, he denied it!" It's total BS.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Exactly.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Nothing but respect from here for leaving the Republican party, but they have been trending toward this bizarre ultra-nationalist, dogmatically fundamentalist (I won't call it Christian), xenophobic and bigoted worldview for a while.

Yes, calling Romney, the man who gave us Romneycare, a Nazi shows a fundamental misunderstanding of both Nazism and Romney. But it's really hard to tell who is the Monster and who Created the Monster in the Republican Party today, especially from the outside. And Romney had more than his share of complicity in the problems of the party today, he played hard to a lot of crazies along the way. Much like McCain, he knew what the fuck he was doing and did it anyways.

We Dems have our faults, as do Independents and every other variation of humans. There are predatory men among us, there are until-not-long-ago homophobes in our mist, there are Iraq-war-apologists lurking about, and, yes, there are even some overeager feminists sharpening the blade (come here, Sebby, I've got something for you). But, shit, there ain't anyone in the Democratic party I can think of whose anywhere near the clown car level the Rs have been at for some time now.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Um. A pun is a direct Nazi comparison? And what does that have to do with binders full of women?

Both of the included links are dead, so I can't see exactly what was said, but the text there says someone made a comment about Nikki Haley and someone else quoted Goebbels about lying (presumably the exceedly common quote). 1. Which of those is about Romney, and (2) how is the latter "Republicans are Nazis"?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's almost like you don't understand that there was and is a huge difference between the parties. And if you think that booting Franken clears that up for the idiots who voted for Trump, you're delusional.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Both, although not having control of anything means most of what the Dems are actually trying to accomplish right now is political. How do they do what the need to do - which is mostly get their messaging out - when a big chunk of the attention paid to Dems each week is a new allegation against Al? How do they get media and voter attention on whatever when there's almost certainly ongoing embarrassment happening?

Agreed, but it's not a zero sum game of persuading one pool of voters, and the margins very much matter. Looking no different from the GOP, because we don't do anything about credible allegations of inappropriate behavior either, can absolutely be a factor in someone staying home or voting third party.

Okay then.

Seriously, stop this.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I don't think Franken is going because of the acts he did, really, but instead because he was pissing into the political headwinds. He was becoming a political liability to a lot of other people. It wasn't fair, it was politics, and my hope is he does his penance and we move on. More than one pol in a similar situation has recovered and run for another office before, like Joe Biden with his speech (where he was pretty clearly guilty).

The thing is, this political headwind is clearing out a lot of real assholes. Originally it was mostly the reprobates at Fox, now it's all over. So yes, we should try to avoid the collateral damage. But let's keep clearing out the assholes, there's one in Alabama we need on the chopping block come Tuesday. And, frankly, there are a few I know in some law firms that need to discover judgment day.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Hit over the head by WHOM? Kelly Ann? The magical Huckabees? Trump? Fuck outta here. Weather the bullshit. Listen to the hammering from our party. Investigate the allegations. Figure something out that makes sense. Jesus Christ. Just because Moore should bow out and didn't doesn't mean that we can't make the argument because Franken is still in the Senate. Forcing him to resign doesn't achieve anything other than retaining a moral high ground that doesn't really exist.

This is pure, unadulterated garbage. It was Franken's questions that has Sessions in possible deep shit for perjury. There are absolutely essential voices. Franken was accomplishing shit. His voice has been vital. Figuring out how to handle the allegations against him sensibly before forming a chorus of people who want to push him out doesn't lead to funding pedophiles. The Democratic electorate wouldn't vote a known pedophile into office. You're being absolutely ridiculous.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Agreed. And that refrain has been adopted straight down the line.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Agreed

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

So, a few things. One is that Axelrod tweeted that in March, and Romney made his binders of women comment seven months later, in October, so unless you credit Axelrod with prescience remarkable even for a political consultant, it's hard to say that tweet has anything to do with the "binders of women."

Two, when you look at the tweet Axelrod sent five minutes earlier, it's pretty clear that he's not calling Romney a Nazi, but comparing Romney's 7-1 spending advantage in the GOP primary in Illinois to the German army's Blitzkreig.

Third, sometimes people use German when comparing other people to Hitler, but that does not mean any allusion to German is a Hitler comparison. You must get this, since you are pointing out that Mitt's awkwardness in saying "binders of women" did not necessarily signal sexism.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is our party's problem. This right here.

We craft the message. We address the issues. We weather the storm when there is one. The appropriate response as a party to Franken's shit is: There is currently an investigation. Any new accusations will be added to the investigation and will be considered when leadership must determine the appropriate steps.

Instead, we have a bunch of Adders on our side who are screaming that Franken must leave! We can't be hypocrites! We can't get anything done!

Ridiculous.

Do you even hear yourself? In what world has anyone on this board (or anywhere in the world) said that we shouldn't "do anything about credible allegations?" Absolutely no one. The fact that you think the only thing to be done is for Franken to step down is the problem we are currently discussing. And the fact that you think we "look no different from the GOP" over Franken or even Conyers is batshit crazy.

Brilliant.

Stop what? If you think that demanding Franken step down isn't punishment in most everyone's eyes, including those calling for him to step down, you're nuts.

Usually I'm with you when it comes to your empathy for women's, race, LGBT issues. But the fact that you can't see past "resignation is required for any charge related to sexual impropriety" makes me wonder if you're losing your ability to reason in favor of proving to everyone how empathetic you are.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Is that what it was? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I suspect I disagree.

What's my fix? And my fix for what?

I can't tell whether the problem you're trying to solve is that Trump is a serial sexual harasser, that Trump is not being restrained much by the rest of the government, that Democrats can't restrain Trump until next fall, that Al Franken is creating bad headlines, or that lots of men treat lots of women badly, but you seem to just toss them all together as if they're the same things.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I blame Obama for this. He had this awesome machine, and that's what he turned it into, through disinterest and neglect.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think both you and Adder are overstating the damage being done by Franken maintaining office while there is a fucking investigation going on. Who is he becoming a political liability to?

My whole point is I don't think Franken's actions require clearing him out and I don't think he's creating collateral damage that can't be managed with even a little bit of thought. Requiring his head is an overreaction.

This is a complete non-sequitur. It's like when a politician says, "I'm not going to apologize for loving America. I'd like to see someone try to make me!" Sure. I'm with you. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I love Obama, but this shit right here is truth.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If we've learned anything over the last few decades, it's that when Democrats get hit over the head by stupid attacks pushed by mendacious conservatives and picked up by a credulous media eager to give both sides to the next question of when a Democrat last beat his wife, the thing to do is to surrender meekly and hope that they won't do it again. That way, you get to kick the football!

http://assets.gocomics.com/uploads/b...1701271310.jpg

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The implication being that if you really think Axelrod was calling Mitt a Nazi, you also should be thinking that he was comparing all the other candidates in the Republican primary to the hapless European neighbors of Germany who were steamrolled by the Wehrmacht, and in that case doesn't he really deserve points for likening most Republicans to the Nazis' victims?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It really is a problem. The only guy I can think of who actually had some courage to ignore how shit always works in politics in a way that was refreshing and different when it came to these ridiculous attacks was Anthony Weiner. And it turns out the reason why he had such big balls was that he just wanted everyone to look at his balls.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This may be right; we will never know what the consequences would be of Franken remaining in office. But I think we are discounting the possibility that pressuring him to resign was a calculated, possibly even cynical, attempt to minimize the possibility that the Democrats would lose the Senate seat in the long term. I would not be surprised if some of the private conversations were along the lines of: Listen Al, we don't think it is fair to ask you to resign, but you know politics. We need to think about the big picture, not just you. We love you, but this is a contested seat every election, and you created a situation that might tip the balance toward the Republicans, so you need to sacrifice your Senate seat for the cause of keeping the seat Democrat in the long term.

I have no idea whether this is correct, or whether my hypothesized strategy is smart or effective. But I am not convinced that pressuring him to resign was simply an act of liberal self-flagellation.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

1. It’s absolutely punishment. Stop debating that.

2. The words are clear. Seventy percent of what’s wrong with politics and by extension policy is that all corrective measures are applied in an extreme fashion. Franken is accused of boorish behavior? Well, all men accused are the same, and all must hang! No one thinks. It’s a fucking mob, with shit for brains, happy to treat Franken like Moore.

You will never meet a zero tolerance zealot with a three digit IQ.

3. Franken was smart, rational, and could argue his positions quite effectively. In govt, that’s a fucking unicorn.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Why is it that clearing out these assholes and doing so in a manner that thoughtfully distinguishes between the Moores and Frankens should be mutually exclusive propositions?

We can do both. We aren’t morons who must feed the mob’s bloodlust with unworthy sacrifices like Franken. The “they’re necessary collateral damage in a noble movement” is no argument at all. It’s enabling a pack of low rent Robespierres.

We should be better than what happened to Franken.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

That's a much better argument. If I were Franken, based on the collective tendency towards short term memory of our electorate, I would tell whoever was coming at me to shove it.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'm not sure the recent electoral past, or the composition of the current House and Senate, support this proposition.

I'm not convinced Franken won't hold on. The announcement of a future resignation is the kind of thing where there could be a call to reconsider, some further thought by a lot of people, possibly after the air clears a bit and we see what happens with Moore in particular or after the ethics committee weighs in a bit.

The really funny thing here is watching a bunch of Trumpsters defending Franken. If he does reverse course and hang in, he's going to be running with some interesting testimonials.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think this is why the pressure.

That pressure is felt all over the place, from NY, where Gillibrand desperately wants to pick up several congressional seats upstate, to Missouri, where the Republicans at this point traditionally blow their shot at a senate seat based on the sexual perversity of their candidates.