Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492832)

I find it interesting that at a time when supposedly everyone is rallying around free speech, much of the discussion is about proscribing what some people ought to say.

Originally Posted by thurgreedmarshall (Post 492868)

i fucking love this post. If i think muslims and muslim leaders should do exactly what nasrallah is doing in this article you're citing, you come up with all sorts of justifications about why neither he nor anyone else should. But somehow you feel vindicated when he actually does? Talk about making no sense.

I think this is a great thing. I think it would do wonders if others in similar positions of influence did the same thing. I think stuff like this helps. I'd like it to happen more often.

Tm

eta, from the article: "dozens of other, far more moderate muslim groups have also condemned the recent killings in paris. Dalil boubakeur, the head of the great mosque of paris, was quick to decry the killings in no uncertain terms."

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492868)

I fucking love this post. If I think Muslims and Muslim leaders should do exactly what Nasrallah is doing in this article you're citing, you come up with all sorts of justifications about why neither he nor anyone else should. But somehow you feel vindicated when he actually does? Talk about making no sense.

I think this is a great thing. I think it would do wonders if others in similar positions of influence did the same thing. I think stuff like this helps. I'd like it to happen more often.

TM

eta, from the article: "Dozens of other, far more moderate Muslim groups have also condemned the recent killings in Paris. Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Great Mosque of Paris, was quick to decry the killings in no uncertain terms."

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492868)

I fucking love this post. If I think Muslims and Muslim leaders should do exactly what Nasrallah is doing in this article you're citing, you come up with all sorts of justifications about why neither he nor anyone else should. But somehow you feel vindicated when he actually does? Talk about making no sense.

I think this is a great thing. I think it would do wonders if others in similar positions of influence did the same thing. I think stuff like this helps. I'd like it to happen more often.

TM

eta, from the article: "Dozens of other, far more moderate Muslim groups have also condemned the recent killings in Paris. Dalil Boubakeur, the head of the Great Mosque of Paris, was quick to decry the killings in no uncertain terms."

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492872)

I don't think anyone participating in this discussion is qualified to opine on what Muslims - moderate or otherwise - say to each other about these types of events.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492872)

I also have no idea whether statements like these help. I suspect not very much, as they seem to crop up in the aftermath each time.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492872)

Also, check out #jesuisdalia

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 492873)

I knew that moderates have been saying the same stuff all along, but no one ever acknowledges them. In part because their voices get shoved down to the bottom of the newspaper article, like this one.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 492873)

ETA: I thought the more interesting part of the article was the Shia vs. Sunni stuff, which ultimately may be much, much more important than moderate vs. extreme, however that's defined.

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 492869)

Crime rates in New York have dropped significantly more and significantly faster than in most other major cities.

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 492873)

I knew that moderates have been saying the same stuff all along, but no one ever acknowledges them. In part because their voices get shoved down to the bottom of the newspaper article, like this one.

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 492829)

... no shortage of outreach for younger folks. I'm going to bet that just about anyone someone here names someone is already trying to do.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492830)

Either you are ignoring my other posts or you are being intentionally obtuse.

It's not about finding an entire religion (or any specific community) at fault and it's not about keeping any one person from doing something insane. It's about changing the atmosphere in which any criticism of Islam is looked upon by muslims ranging from extremists to moderates as a severely punishable offense. It's about changing an atmosphere where moderates think, "Well, these extremists are more like me than them," and "I don't agree with these extremists, but I see where they're coming from," which ends up providing comfort to these lunatics.

I can draw as many analogies as you want. But I sure as hell don't understand why, when it comes to religion, there is instantly a different standard.

If you want to talk about the ghetto and the "Stop snitching" bullshit that goes on, let's do it. I think the idea that giving any help to police at all when it comes to criminal activity (even when the information is coming from the person who has been harmed by such activity) amounts to snitching--which is punishable by death in some neighborhoods--is fucking insane. Is any one person who refuses to talk to the police at fault? No. Should the community do something to eliminate the atmosphere in which cooperating with police is worse than committing a fucking crime? Absolutely. Criminals have fostered a culture (with the help of police who have a firm "us v. them" attitude) in which something that harms just the criminals has become anathema to the community those very same criminals are destroying. That is completely ridiculous.

Mind you, I can still criticize the fucking police for (i) enforcing that us v. them attitude that contributes to the problem and (ii) having the same stupid no-snitching code (hell, theirs is probably just as strong). It's not an either/or-blame proposition. I can have conversation upon conversation about how we need to stop criminals from being criminals. I can rail on and on about how cops shouldn't treat whole communities as the enemy. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't also expect those communities to do something about changing the no-snitching culture.

And I can agree with you, and Ty, and Greedy that (i) the main problem is the group of criminals and (ii) those critics who seem to only focus on what the community should be doing to get rid of no-snitching culture are shallow morons, in each case, at the exact same time.

In my mind, it's the same standard when it comes to religious extremism. Or it should be. Tell me why I'm wrong.

TM

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492874)

Brilliant analysis. Since we cannot quantify the number of minds influenced to avoid violent activity by influential people speaking out, let's assume based on some violent activity, that it's "not very much."

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 492879)

In all these cases, what you are talking about is called alienation. Give people enough reason to believe that they don't belong (or that more people believe they shouldn't belong than believe they should), and they will stop caring about what people who do belong care or think.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492837)

Was Tim McVeigh tolerated by his white, Christian communities? Did they even know what he was thinking?

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 492842)

now we are going in circles. a majority white christian country empowered the FBI to try to stop the Klan. so now it's your turn.

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 492845)

I have no idea what you are trying to say, so I'll just not respond. This is now the same discussion we had the last time there was some horrible Islamic terrorist attack. What has been missing from all the blogs you posted and all the posts you/RT/Wonk/GGG have posted is a complete lack of what to do- lots of what we shouldn't do, and what we can't expect to happen from moderate Muslims, but nothing as an alternative. Maybe if one of tried to answer that at least we won't be snapping at our tails.