Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are just like Hillary Clinton -- all you offer is complaining about the Republicans, with no positive, concrete agenda to tell voters how you will make their lives better. You just don't learn.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you can't figure out how to work the media, why would a voter trust you with the country? Trump calls the news he doesn't like "fake," he lies with impunity, and on and on. Democrats worry that if Al Franken hangs around someone in the media might say something bad about them. If you have to pick one of the two to be the alpha male, who are you going to pick?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Just checking: The deal announced today means that Britain will pay tens of billions of dollars in order to continue to be subject to EU customs rules, but without a continuing role in deciding what those rules are, yes?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yep. We had one who massaged all genders.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

As I said, I don't think a substantive conversation among this group of people about this topic has much value.

Taking the allegations as true, he forced a more intimate than wanted kiss on one women, took a demeaning picture while she was a sleep in which he appears to be at least slightly touching her, groped 5-6 (not sure I've kept up with the perfect count) more at photo ops and tried to coerce a kiss out of a congressional staffer before taking office. None of that is acceptable behavior. If it were in a workplace, collectively it would absolutely be a fireable offense. All of it was arguably in a workplace, although much of it was not in his current workplace, so that's arguably toward less "punishment."

But he's not a regular employee, he's an elected official. That both gives him more leeway in the sense that actually firing him is quite hard and less in the sense that losing the confidence of his constituents, or as he himself put it, his ability to be an effective senator to represent them, is a problem above and beyond any legal or ethical exposure.

I'm sad he's gone. He was a very good senator and someone I was proud represented me. I also think things reached a point where he had to go for political reasons already stated.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You sent a colleague a text message with an explicit image. Harassment? You can't say. Depends on other context, the most important of which is whether that colleague was happy to receive it or not.

You got a blowie from a copy room messenger under your desk. Harassment? Signs point to it, but you can't say for sure unless you know whether the messenger felt and feels like a willing participant (leaving aside the rest of the office for whom it could be a factor in a hostile work environment.

The the very same objective conduct is harassment or not depending on how it is received. This is what harassment means.

Signing up for a gender discrimination suit is a really poor way to CYA.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I thought he expressed that sentiment in his speech yesterday.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

No, Democrats worry that talking about Al sucks up all of the air time.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Is this really how your live your life? You only discuss issues relating to race and what is and isn't racist with blacks and Latinos? LGBT issues can only be discussed by that community? No one outside of those communities is capable of adding meaningfully to any topic that those communities confront? That's a strange existence.

We discussed the kiss and the photo. I think we disagree on that one. This wouldn't get him fired anywhere.

The allegations of groping, if true, are very concerning. He wanted an investigation w/r/t these because I think he wanted to fight some or all of them. He wanted the information to come out and the opportunity to defend himself.

The allegation about the kiss is that he tried to kiss someone and she avoided the kiss. Okay. Not cool. But something that should keep him from holding office forever (even when combined with everything else)? I don't bloody think so.

But the key words in your paragraph are, "if true." There needs to be some kind of balance between believing the accusers automatically and completely shutting them down. I think accusations should always be taken seriously. But we shouldn't be rushing to label this guy as a serial harasser and discarding him just because we're in a climate in which we're finally taking this stuff seriously.

And this is where the argument lies. I don't think his actions have put him in a situation in which he can't be an effective senator or who has lost the confidence of his constituents. I'm not in MN, so maybe I don't have an accurate read on constituents not named Adder. But the calls for him to step down seem to be coming from lots of other people.

Well that's where we disagree. And I suppose that's as good a place as any to end this one.

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com...s-23.gif?w=300

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

There should be certain objective thresholds that all subjective claims must meet.

Like, say, the behavior must be targeted toward or intentionally exposed to the victim. A person should not be subject to a harassment claim because someone saw him checking out sexts on his iPhone, or walked in his office while he was looking at the SI swimsuit gallery linked on Yahoo.

I almost had this happen once. I had a naughty photo open on my phone (as we've all had). I get a call while walking into the office. I forget to close out that photo after finishing the call. An assistant in the office (quite a gamer, I might add... exactly the sort who'd bring any claim available for $$$) asked me for a number. I say "I have it." I open the phone to get this lawyer's # within her plane of vision. Up comes the naughty image.

Because, I can only assume, the universe owed me favor at that point, she was momentarily looking elsewhere. I immediately (with cat-like reflexes the speed of which I'd never known) turn the phone inward and move away.

I would never harass anyone in a million years. This person: twelve million. And yet, through nothing but a comedy of errors, I'd have been nailed for that. Or worse, effectively blackmailed.

And some officious sort would probably agree that was harassment of a sort. Just because it was technically reportable.

So, objectively, at a minimum, I'd say harassment must require intent.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Except unlike 2016, in 2018, Republicans will have been in control for two years.

You'd agree, complaining about what the opponent who's not in control might do and pointing to what the opponents in control have done are two very different things.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I'd fire you for having terrible judgment. If you don't know the person well enough to know they won't freak out if sent a dirty image, and you still send it, you're going to do a lot more really dumb shit.

Blow jobs? They tend to be well received.

It doesn't take a law degree (hell, it might not even take a college degree) to create pretexts to avoid hiring employees in protected classes in professional positions. You've a got a long menu of nebulous criteria with which to paper the file. It happens all the time.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If you have a work environment in which you degrade women with others as part of ongoing jokes within the earshot of someone who doesn't find that shit funny, there may be no intent, but that is surely harassment.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Perhaps so -- I didn't catch it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Ridiculous if true, but you seem to believe it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Curious -- when you say "we've all had," are you referring to the people in this current conversation, people on this board, lawyers in your office, everyone in your office (including the assistant), people generally?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Harassment doesn't require "intent", if by intent you mean some degree of conscious malevolence . There are clueless people who think their shit is well-intentioned.

In most of those cases, you want to enlighten them first by hitting them with a 2x4, and then they'll get all unhappy because they can't pinch asses, make polish jokes, or complain about the Jews owning the media anymore, even though it was all in fun.

But some are so egregious that there won't be a second chance in my workplace, because it's not just about them, it's about having a decent workplace.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's a fair point, but I think it's still crippling for Democrats to complain about Republicans without offering something concrete and better.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You're really not paying any attention to the world around you, are you?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

While that is all Republicans have done for the last 20 years, whether in or out of power, perhaps with a brief period in the first year or two of Bush II's first term, at some point someone has to actually govern.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Sometimes your patronizing tone makes me feel deplorable.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I wasn't talking about how to govern, but how to campaign. Trump promised to build a wall. It was a concrete, simple thing that many people thought would make a difference to them.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Well, Trent Franks is so.... special.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Sex + pro-life = "surrogacy"?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

+ $5M = XXX

Solve for XXX

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

If I did not make that joke, i’d be accused, and guilty, of whiffing.

Have a Xanax, Francis.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Everybody looks at the naughty pictures on the internet. The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wasteoids, dweebies... we all do it.

ETA: and I highly doubt there’s anyone here under 50 who hasn’t had an intimate photo of an SO at one time or another since the advent of the iPhone.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I agree. I think in that instance, there is intent. You are saying things you know to be offensive in the presence of people you should know maybe offended.

Even if you did that accidentally, you are still intending to degrade women.

If, however, a female colleague overhears you talking dirty with your girlfriend while at the office late at night, that cannot be considered harassment. If you had no intention of being heard, and assumed you were not being heard, and we’re not saying anything degrading about women, that’s not harassment. May be a negligent violation of company policy, but not harassment.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Can I discriminate in hiring by asking questions to determine who is not sensitive to workplace sexual hijinks, i.e. cannot (or is unlikely to) claim a hostile work environment? Can I disclose that there are nudie calendars on the walls and lewd, raunchy and gross jokes made frequently, and insulate myself from liability?

LessinNYC

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Dude, in the end it doesn't matter what the guy intends. What matters is what the woman experiences. If a guy creates a hostile work environment through being malicious, obtuse or negligent, the result is the same, and it's harassment.

No. Because we do not live in a libertarian's world.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Cite, please.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Observation from a friend on Facebook on Franken:

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Experience is subjective. There has to be some objective threshold where reasonable people agree harassment starts. A sort of “know it when I see it” thing, as SCOTUS defined pornography. Otherwise, almost anything can form the basis for a complaint because it made someone feel a certain way.

There has to be some objective criteria, so we might weed out ludicrous claims by noting, “No reasonable person could have felt harassed here. You are not reasonable, and you do not have a claim.”

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Perhaps we should start by discussing the meaning of "objective" and "subjective".

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Well, how did Uber do with this?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Laws govern discrimination in hiring, not just discrimination in the workplace. Do you really think what you suggest is legal?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

What a man meant is no more objective than what a woman experiences.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Using that, anything can form the basis of a harassment claim.

Courts already apply some objective criteria. Otherwise, some screwball could claim harassment because her boss had his bookshelf adorned with pictures of his daughter, a hot competitive swimmer, or track star, in form-fitting outfits.

“Other males looked at those photos, and it made me feel harassed as a woman.”

Sounds implausible, right? Well, that’s the kooky crap you’ll see filed if we apply an exclusively subjective “feel” test.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Not well. Those are hard to prove.

But you can expect to see this emerge as a growth area for lawyers on both sides.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Well put. I walked into that.

I’m struggling to find an objective line. I guess reasonableness works. If it’s generally unreasonable to feel harassed at something, you can’t make a claim for it.

A good analogue might be Jesus Freaks. They get offended at everything and apply extreme standards to behavior.* And they’re rightly ignored. If you’re citing Andrea Dworkin in establishing that you’ve been harassed because your co-worker constantly talks to other men about how hot he thinks Taylor Swift is, no claim for you.

—
* Except in cases of preserving Senate majorities?