Re: Race
 

My favorite series on television was Joss Whedon's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. My favorite book series last year was Stieg Larsson's Millenium Trilogy. In both cases, male writers were able to write feminist characters and narratives ridiculously well. Feminism is pervasive in both series to a point that you don't even notice it, because it's interwoven into the material rather than being "a very special episode" (in Buffy's case) or "the radical feminist character" (in Larsson's case) . In both cases, white men don't seem to have a problem writing about women's experiences and injustices, but I suspect that part of that comes from having strong women in their lives. Whedon had Marti Noxon and the kick-ass Jane Espensen in his writing staff for almost the duration of Buffy. Larsson had Eva Gabrielsson as his lifemate for 20 plus years and wrote a magazine dedicated to social issues before embarking on the Millenium Trilogy.

You don't see that sort embrace of issues when it comes to race, though, of course, there are some exceptions. And lord knows, you don't see it THAT often with women, especially women of color. (Check out the fight between Jezebel and The Daily Show. )

I think it's totally possible for a writer to create a world and characters outside his or her own personal experience. But I think also that being comfortable with the kinds of people that the writer writes about is critical. And then, the writer needs to shove away nagging doubts and just write. Some people will love the perspective, some people will hate it, and some will be offended. Check out discussions about The Help, a novel written by a white woman about the relationship between black domestic workers and white employers in the south in the 60s. The criticism ranges to overwhelming praise to outright anger.

Re: It is an absolute fact Hank
 

Oh, pfffft. Big deal. I thought you meant passing on the shoulder on the right -- which happens here all the time. It's so aggravating -- lots of geriatrics who go (no kidding) 20 miles below the speed limit. Grrrr.

Re: Race
 

I can think of very few white writers who create compelling black characters. Faulkner. Then who?

But every black writer I've ever read (that I can think of now) can create compelling white characters.

Maybe it's a white problem, not a race problem.

Re: Race
 

That was a funny episode. There were a lot of funny episodes, catch-llines, etc. I think I was turned off when they fell into the whole meta-plot about the making of the show ("it's a show about nothing!"), which seemed to be around the time that the cultishness hit its peak.

Re: Race
 

http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/louie/

Louie is the new show on FX by Louis CK the comedian, who I have seen in person and it is cringe inducingly funny.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

I agree. Lebron going to Miami would be very, very weird. Wade's and James' styles do not fit together like Jordan's and Pippen's or Kobe's and Shaq's did. I don't see how you beat a team with those three, but I think James is smart enough to know two alphas isn't the best situation for him.

That said, why the hell would he go back to Cleveland, who has done nothing besides fire their coach? That team is fucking awful. Take away Lebron and you have last year's Nets.

Best immediate situation is to go to Chicago and have them sign Boozer. I don't think it's ideal and I can't imagine he'd want to spend the rest of his career trying to live in Jordan's over-sized shoes, but if I were him, I'd prefer that to Miami.

If he was truly smart, he'd sign with the Knicks and convince Paul to come over after the 2010 season (when Paul can decline his player option). That would be the absolute best situation for him. And that team would have the best balance of any. I don't think he's going to sign with the Knicks, though.

TM

Re: Race
 

I found TM's comments about the play interesting. And not at all surprising, given my own feelings about David Mamet.

But Jesus H, the level of white-guilt it has prompted is ridiculous.

I will summarize: White people are bad. White writers cannot make interesting black characters. And no one on this board has ever watched The Wire.

Re: Race
 

I don't know much about the composition of The Wire's writing staff (I've never seen the show), but from what I understood, the characters, black, white, women, were very well done. I don't know what the audience demographic was for that show (though I suspect it was targeted at men 18-35).

ETA: I did not see Sidd's post before posting. :D

Re: Race
 

It shrinks?

Like a frightened turtle.

What's interesting is watching old episodes and discovering all the times Larry David used himself to be the voice of a character (not just Steinbrenner). Wait. I guess that's not that interesting.

TM

Re: Race
 

We're talking Miss Texas here. She was an anorexic vehicle for transporting large amounts of hair and greasy make-up. If only a nice hispanic girl had won and gone to law school instead.

Re: Race
 

I haven't watched the wire. But if you can only come up with that one example, you're highlighting an issue.

On TV, I think it's the industry (see atticus). In novels, I think it's something else.

Re: Race
 

Speaking of black people, Prince is a seriously tripped out dude:

http://blogs.citypages.com/gimmenois...es_uk_inte.php

Re: Race
 

larry david. how many times in Curb. can you watch him fight with the Pakistani gas attendent and think GEE THAT'S FUNNY FOR THE 90TH TIME.

Re: Race
 

Wow. Playing electric guitar helps you keep your hair. I got to get me an electric guitar and take some time and learn how to play.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

An hour, LeBron? Really? WTF are you going to say to fill a full hour?

Re: Race
 

There were different writers involved at different times, but the primary ones were creators David Simon and Ed Burns, who are both white. Simon was a beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun and Burns was a Baltimore city police for years, so they were nonetheless writing about things from their own experience.

Re: Race
 

It's a power problem. To be successful, whites don't need to know blacks. They can set up a two-dimensional stereotype (positive or negative) and live very happily with that. Move to the suburbs, build a gated community far away, build highways around "bad" neighborhoods, design an education system based on property taxes, etc. But blacks, hispanics and asians have to know white people to be successful. Hell, minorities don't have a choice but to know white people. They raise their kids, clean their houses, work for them in every capacity. We have to know how to keep you happy, learn how to be non-threatening, conform, adjust and assimilate. You can be a white person in this country and never, ever, ever have to answer to a black or hispanic person. You don't need to know anything them and, as a group, you actively limit your exposure. And almost every interaction involves a dynamic which doesn't require real knowledge.

The obvious rebuttal is that so much black and hispanic culture permeates American culture that whites have that knowledge, but that ain't true. It's that two-dimensional understanding that survives.

If I were a white guy writing a tv show or movie and wanted an authentic black character, I would hire an actor who could contribute meaningfully and incorporate his ideas. It's not like white writers and directors can't do it. The Wire and Treme are perfect examples of shows in which white people have actually learned (by submersion) black culture and have their characters speak and act authentically.

TM

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/20..._my_child.html

I love Dina Manzo. she is very pretty and Danielle Staub is EVIL. damn. I've been to the brownstone. Caroline's husband waved to my daughter.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

I think it's kind of cool. Exploit the circus to send the proceeds to the Boys and Girls Club? Very savvy. Can you imagine Kobe, ARod or any other modern athlete doing that?

TM

Re: Race
 

Nicely done.

TM

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

I'm imagining that it will be one giant ego-fluffing, highlight reel.

Thanks LeBron for giving me yet another reason to hate the NBA.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

Hey, ESPN had a 3-hour special to discuss the 2010 NFL schedule release.

They'll mix in a bunch of highlights, some stories about his upbringing, with a focus on his Ohio roots if he's staying, a couple of pieces with him doing some charitable work (i.e., giving some hoops pointers to kids on a dusty playground), an interview with his mom, and finishing with an interview with him where the first 5 minutes are discussing all the emotions, an announcement of where he's going, followed by a few minutes of follow-up questions of "why ____?"

Re: Race
 

Pics?

Re: Race
 

Fixed it.

Re: Race
 

You think a Hispanic Miss Texas wouldn't have been anorexic with big hair and lots of makeup? if there were a Venn diagram for beauty pageants, Texas, big hair and lots of makeup would be an the intersection.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

There is that, and I don't begrudge LeBron for treating this as the business opportunity that it is. I'm more irritated at the premise that we're going to want to watch for an hour, or that there's shit worth saying that'll take that long to fill it. If they bring in Seacrest to host this thing, I'm gonna be pissed.

Re: Race
 

I think what I find the most offensive is NY has so many immigrant asians, that white people assume "they know" asians and that we're all "like" their nail technicians, or we own a dry cleaner or a deli. and that's just BS I probably have more edumacation than they do. and make more money.

What is truly offensive is my own people the non-assimilated asians snub the assimilated ones. They view it as selling out that you're married to a white guy or you speak perfect english. or go bleached blonde. that was the big fuck you. if you can't beat em, join em.

Re: Race
 

That was an Accident, a found poem at best. Maybe you do not understand white people?

Re: Race
 

I agree with everything in your post. I quoted this not to disagree with it, but to observe that the second half of the 20th century will be remembered for requiring people who do make that choice not to answer to or interact with people of color (or Jews or women) to give up large chunks of their participation in society generally -- they cannot be in the military; they cannot be schoolteachers; they increasingly cannot be police officers or elected officials. They cannot own a business unless they locate it where the demographers say there are no people of color.

So white folks can "choose" not to engage with black folks and Hispanic folks, but the costs of that choice have risen exponentially, and not all of it has risen by government fiat, which is pretty cool.

Re: It is an absolute fact Hank
 

A guy killed a motorcycle cop who was conducting a traffic stop and shut down the 405 for an entire day when he was passing on the shoulder here a month or so ago. Hard to feel bad for him and his many upcoming years in prison.

Re: Race
 

Adder, run a "Miss Texas" search and give us your results.

Re: Race
 

Speaking of Prince, we saw Jesse Johnson playing a warm up show at a small club in West Hollywood last night. I'm not even a guitar geek (though I was with one), but damn that man can play.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

Why would you justify the stupid premise? The announcement will be all over everything within 30 seconds. If you want to see him make it, tune in for the last 10 minutes or Tivo it. He's not going to announce it in the first 45 minutes--who among the idiots watching would keep watching after that?

Re: Race
 

Agreed. There is no doubt in my mind that every generation is a serious improvement on the last when it comes to this stuff. I might die happy in 40 years.

By the way, speaking about being happy, is it a bad sign that I am officially obsessed with House? I'm working my way through the early seasons. What a brilliant show and character.

TM

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

Playing the game with two balls would make it quite interesting indeed. I would like to see that.

Re: The thread where Spring has sprung, and Penske has risen from the law. Word!
 

Well, you know, I might miss a cool highlight or something.

Re: Race
 

It isn't high art, but James Patterson has written quite successfully about black characters in his Alex Cross novels. I think with a reasonable degree of authenticity, at least in the context of a pulp detective novel.

That said, I'm not sure there is much reason to care whether white writers are writing novels with convincing minority characters, as long as minority authors are getting published (and writing characters from their communities). As the work of a single creator, I think its a bit much to expect authors to strive for diversity for its own sake.

The same excuses, however, do not apply to the collaborative productions of tv and movies.

Re: Race
 

Well, it's a serious improvement on the last generation of doctor shows that you watched.

Re: Race
 

It all depends on where you live -- one could live in most of Minnesota (and I suspect nearly all of No/SoDak) and have little interaction with non-whites.

My life is significantly more homogenous than it was when I lived in NYC -- my burb is overwhelmingly white and if I go to my home town, it is almost entirely white. I think it would be pretty easy to find places across the country that would minimize or eliminate the need to interact with people of color -- you'd just have to stay out of the South and cities.

Re: Race
 

Actually i said people of one race have trouble writing non-one-dimensional characters of another race, limited to the issue of race.

i invented saying tihs summaraizes most PB socks' posts on race.