LawTalkers - Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Re: Switching back to MY bone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492915)

This article is fantastic.

http://professorshih.blogspot.com/20...is-racist.html

TM

Yes, it is excellent. Thanks for posting.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Someone (Hank?) asked me what is to be done. I think this piece is excellent, including this part:

Quote:

In laying exclusive blame for the Paris massacres on the ‘totalitarian’ ideology of radical Islam, liberal intellectuals like Packer explicitly disavow one of liberalism’s great strengths. Modern liberalism has always insisted that ideology can go only so far in explaining behaviour. Social causes matter. The Kouachi brothers were products of the West – and of the traumatic collision between Western power and an Islamic world that has been torn apart by both internal conflict and Western military intervention. They were, above all, beurs, French citizens from the banlieue: Parisians of North African descent. It’s unlikely they could have recited more than the few hadith they learned from the ex-janitor-turned-imam who presided over their indoctrination. They came from a broken family and started out as petty criminals, much like Mohamed Merah, who murdered a group of Jewish schoolchildren in Montauban and Toulouse in 2012. Their main preoccupations, before their conversion to Islamism, seem to have been football, chasing girls, listening to hip hop and smoking weed. Radical Islam gave them the sense of purpose that they couldn’t otherwise find in France. It allowed them to translate their sense of powerlessness into total power, their aimlessness into heroism on the stage of history. They were no longer criminals but holy warriors. To see their crimes as an expression of Islam is like treating the crimes of the Baader-Meinhof gang as an expression of historical materialism. And to say this is in no way to diminish their responsibility, or to relinquish ‘moral clarity’.

Last night I spoke with a friend who grew up in the banlieue. Assia (not her real name) is a French woman of Algerian origin who has taught for many years in the States, a leftist and atheist who despises Islamism. She read Charlie Hebdo as a teenager, and revelled in its irreverent cartoons. She feels distraught not just by the attacks but by the target, which is part of her lieux de mémoire. A part of her will always be Charlie Hebdo. And yet she finds it preposterous – and disturbing – that even Americans are now saying ‘je suis Charlie Hebdo.’ Have any of them ever read it? she asked. ‘You couldn’t publish Charlie in the US – not the cartoons about the Prophet, or the images of popes getting fucked in the ass.’ Charlie Hebdo had an equal opportunity policy when it came to giving offence, but in recent years it had come to lean heavily on jokes about Muslims, who are among the most vulnerable citizens in France. Assia does not believe in censorship, but wonders: ‘Is this really the time for cartoons lampooning the Prophet, given the situation of North Africans in France?’

That’s ‘North Africans’, not ‘Muslims’. ‘When I hear that there are five million Muslims in France,’ Assia says, ‘I don’t know what they’re talking about. I know plenty of people in France who are like me, people of North African origin who don’t pray or believe in God, who aren’t Muslims in any real way. We didn’t grow up going to mosque; at most we saw our father fasting at Ramadan. But we’re called Muslims – which is the language of Algérie Française, when we were known as indigènes or as Muslims.’ She admits that more and more young beurs are becoming religious, but this is as much an expression of self-defence as piety, she says: French citizens of North African origin feel their backs are against the wall. That they are turning to an imported form of Islam – often of Gulf origin, often radical – is no surprise: few of them have any familiarity with the more peaceful and tolerant Islam of their North African ancestors. Nor is it surprising to find an increasing anti-Semitism among French Maghrébins in the banlieue. They look at the Jews and see not a minority who were persecuted by Europe but a privileged elite whose history of victimisation is officially honoured and taught in schools, while the crimes of colonisation in Algeria are still hardly acknowledged by the state.

Assia is typically Parisian, in her dress, accent and lifestyle. But that did not prevent her from being reminded, at every turn, of her otherness. ‘Assia, what sort of name is that?’ people would ask her since she was a child. With its strong centralising traditions, France shuns expressions of difference, notably the hijab, but continues to treat French citizens of Muslim origin as foreigners. Second and third-generation citizens are still routinely described as ‘immigrants’. The message: don’t wear the hijab, you’re French; but don’t bother applying for this job if your name is Mohammed. ‘When my brothers were growing up,’ Assia told me, ‘they would be stopped by the police ten to fifteen times a day – on the bus, getting off the bus, on their way to school, on their way home. Girls weren’t stopped; only boys. The French are more comfortable with “Fatima” than with “Mohammed”.’ French women of North African origin are doing better than men – which in part explains why some of the unemployed men take to dominating their mothers and sisters, as if they were their property, their only property. Assia is one of many French Maghrébins who have found it much easier to live outside France.

To say that France has an integration problem, and that it’s in urgent need of repair, isn’t to let the killers – or, pace Packer, their ideology – off the hook. It is to take the full measure of the moral and political challenge at hand, rather than to indulge in self-congratulatory exercises in ‘moral clarity’. If France continues to treat French men of North African origin as if they were a threat to ‘our’ civilisation, more of them are likely to declare themselves a threat, and follow the example of the Kouachi brothers. This would be a gift both to Marine Le Pen and the jihadists, who operate from the same premise: that there is an apocalyptic war between Europe and Islam. We are far from that war, but the events of 7 January have brought us a little closer.

Which I guess is quite a bit of it.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492928)

You can get bent too, then. I have a very low tolerance for accusations of dishonesty from people whom I have treated with respect. It's not something I would say lightly, but I guess it means less to some of you.

you've treated me with respect? (here? elsewhere yes you have)

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492929)

Yes and yes. I often talk to people in the black community about issues that relate to us.
TM

Thank you. I am currently working out a Moth story (hi Thurgreed!- wait, I'm replying to you) about my realization that i needed to start calling out white folk who say stuff that is either intentionally, or ignorantly, racist. It could sound self-serving, but I say "I am not telling you i do this to make me seem good, as I think it a base line of what we should be able to expect from everyone."

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492928)

I apologize. Next time you tell me I'm stupid, I'll say thank you and move on.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492931)

Someone (Hank?) asked me what is to be done. I think this piece is excellent, including this part:

Which I guess is quite a bit of it.

yeah, um, I said solution and you say blame. I am back out. Bye. Sidd/T enjoy!

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 492934)

I apologize. Next time you tell me I'm stupid, I'll say thank you and move on.

You put stupid words in my mouth: "even if you don't support the murder done worldwide by black-car drivers you really can't condemn it but must look to broader factors." (You then told me I had my head up my ass. I don't think I had asked for that, either, but whatever.)

To which I responded, "If you think I'm saying that one can't condemn the murders, then you're not very smart." Note the word "if" at the start of the sentence -- it's a conjunction that signifies possibility, not certainty.

Here's a puzzle for you: Was I telling you that you're not very smart, or was I telling you that you were misrepresenting my views? Hint: It's the second one.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 492889)

Jesus Christ. I think I have finally figured out what the issue is on this board. You (and others) are like a dog with a fucking bone. "This is my bone!" "Gimme the bone?" "Is that the bone?" "Where's the bone?"

Let me try to break your concentration for a minute using my previous example.

You grew up in the South Bronx.
All you've ever heard about talking to cops is that that constitutes snitching.
Everyone you know tells you that snitches are bitches.
You've seen people accused of snitching get beaten up.
You've heard about snitches getting killed.
Your parents tell you not to snitch.
Community leaders say it's dangerous to be a snitch.
Criminals actually hurt snitches.
Cops don't protect snitches.

This is an atmosphere in which you have learned that snitching is bad. You may never say anything to the cops even though it may result in a criminal being arrested for doing something terrible. You may end up jumping in with others who are beating someone up who is a snitch. What's the real cause of the problem? Criminals. What's added to that problem? Cops using snitches and not protecting them. What could be part--not only, part--of a solution? Changing the culture in which everyone around you thinks talking to police is a terrible thing--hearing from your parents or a teacher or a community leader that cooperating with police will decrease violence in your community makes you think about it differently. The more you hear about that in your community, the more you change your mind about cooperating with the police. The more people in your community that hear this from people with influence, the less likely they are to be turned into someone who would kill another person for cooperating with the police.

Contrast with:

You grew up in an isolated community in Jakarta.
All you ever heard was Mohammed is great and you should never mention his name without complete reverance.
You are taught that even asking a question about the prophet is blasphemy
Your parents tell you not to blaspheme.
Your Imam tells you that blasphemy should be punished.
You've seen people who have committed blasphemy punished harshly.
You've heard of people who have committed blasphemy being killed.
You've never heard anyone say, "We should respect the beliefs of others," only that people who are not Muslim are infidels.
You've seen people refer to Westerners as infidels.
You've seen Westerners attack Muslims in lots of places all over the world.
You've heard again and again it's because they are Muslims.
You hear of a Westerner being killed because he has committed blasphemy.

This is an atmosphere in which you have learned that blasphemy is bad. You may never say anything that comes close to blasphemy. You may end up jumping in with others who are beating someone up who has committed blasphemy. What's the real cause of the problem? Radicals who want to force everyone to follow their religion strictly. What's added to that problem? The West bombing innocent people who are Muslim. What could be part--not only, part--of a solution? Changing the culture in which everyone around you thinks that one can never question the prophet--hearing from your parents or a teacher or a community leader that we should respect people of different faiths even if we don't disagree with them. The more you hear about that in your community, the more you change your mind about whether one should be harshly punished if they don't share your religious beliefs. The more people in your community that hear this from people with influence, the less likely they are to be turned into someone who would kill another person for committing blasphemy.

Again, it's not the sole reason why people act out that way. And any one person who does something crazy may not be reachable by the voice of reason. But I think if you change the atmosphere with other influential and/or powerful voices, you can help change results. You and Ty and RT are so focused on the one crazy guy or whether or not we should be dictating to people to try to make changes in their community that you refuse to hear anything else.

TM

1. I don't think this analogy is as useful as you seem to think.

2. You've changed your claim from general radical violence to violence over blasphemy.

3. Of course everyone being more against violence would help, especially against violence in retribution from blasphemy, but probably not very much. The people doing it are alienated from the mainstream by definition.

4. Putting the onus on non-violent Muslims borders on blaming exactly the wrong people. Dalia did not do or condone this.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 492891)

It's too bad that the Paris Islamists all ended up dead, because it could have been helpful to understand what made them different from others like them. IMHO, if you want to avert attacks by crazy people, it would help to have a better mental-health system, and to keep mentally-ill people from buying guns. Just my two cents, and obviously not a panacea.

And I think the NRA response plan is to arm people more -- if more cartoonists had been packing, they could have returned fire and saved lives.

One is alive and in custody, no?

Turn on the radio, the static hurts my ears.

Mario Cuomo's death. Hatred and violence and death, mostly in Nigeria, some in Paris, more than a few here, etc. - some victims of the state (as yet another death row inmate is about to suffer what could possibly be a horrifically painful death caused by botched dose of untested drugs in a lethal injection). And the guy who let the dudes who strangled Eric Garner go scot free is about to be elected to Congress while the Ferguson grand jury members who want to tell the truth about the tanking of the DA have to file an anonymous suit in order to try to do so.

During weeks like this, I sympathize with the Fortress America isolationists. I'd be ok with a return to 19th Century tariffs, autarky even. A little downward adjustment in the standard of living for some, an upward one for others (as manufacturing returned). Fuck em all.**

But. Anyway, I have self-medicated with a Manhattan (Makers) and a little Zenyatta Mondatta played at high volume. Make the best of what's still around, indeed. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, the Punk Rock Girl* introduced me to the Police and Elvis Costello, and after hearing nothing other than all of the corporate AOR that monopolized the airwaves of Podunkville on 97 Rock and Quad 107, that album hit me like the light striking down Saul on the road to Damascus.

Anyway, I'm feeling better. Somewhat. Carry on.

*Yes, the Police weren't punk. It was a nickname based upon a remark made about her by an English teacher who had a sense of humor about non-conformity.

** uh, I realize I was ranting about domestic crap, too, so this part maybe doesn't make as much sense as I thought. Whatever.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch (Post 492925)

This is a legitimate approach if you ignore that the entire purpose behind the attack was to address an affront to Islam,

Says your crystal ball?

Quote:

and that many Muslims are taught that affronts to Islam are terrible crimes.

Based on your vast experience with varying Muslim communities?

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492941)

One is alive and in custody, no?

I swear i do not see the Ty post you quoted. This happens so often to me.

Re: Turn on the radio, the static hurts my ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Bob (Post 492942)

I'm sorry, you had to be introduced to Elvis C and the Police? That was main stream radio. Icky's band might require a secret key, but geez.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 492941)

One is alive and in custody, no?

No, all three are dead, but Coulibaly's girlfriend is on the run.

Since we've been laying heavy emphasis on the Islamic motivations for the brothers' attack on the magazine offices, we should maybe pause for a moment to remember that Coulibaly targeted a kosher grocery out of anti-Semitism. During the siege, he told a reporter "that he committed these acts to defend “oppressed Muslims” notably in Palestine, and targeted the Kosher grocery store because he was targeting jews."

Not that I think anyone here disagrees with any of this, but I think it kinda got lost.

One of the people killed in the grocery was linked to me by fewer degrees of separation than I would have guessed.

Re: Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 492944)

I swear i do not see the Ty post you quoted. This happens so often to me.

Unfortunately, then, as it was a direct response to something you said.

I have been having a really hard time the last few days with this site and Safari. Frequently, it won't load. Very irritating.