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-   -   Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880)

sebastian_dangerfield 12-18-2017 08:02 PM

Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512116)
Well, I'm convinced. Or I'm done with this. In any case, 2 above is written in a foreign language.

TM

Twelve people in a protected class in overwhelmingly non-minority offices of company circulated something offensive to each other. Looked like they were singled out for discriminatory reasons. They weren’t. But we had a probability argument and it was enough to say, “good luck in front of a jury.”

Did the company fuck up from an HR standpoint? Yes, mishandled (no one involved noticed how it looked). Was the claim deserving of a payout? No.

You’re confusing deserving claims with technically sustainable claims. They’re the same about 1/2 of the time.

Pretty Little Flower 12-18-2017 09:13 PM

Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512117)
Twelve people in a protected class in overwhelmingly non-minority offices of company circulated something offensive to each other. Looked like they were singled out for discriminatory reasons. They weren’t. But we had a probability argument and it was enough to say, “good luck in front of a jury.”

Did the company fuck up from an HR standpoint? Yes, mishandled (no one involved noticed how it looked). Was the claim deserving of a payout? No.

You’re confusing deserving claims with technically sustainable claims. They’re the same about 1/2 of the time.

Wait, why is the company on the hook if a group of its employees send each other an e-mail among themselves? I think you are engaged in a misleading material omission in your weird little story.

Adder 12-18-2017 09:48 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 512100)
Moore defenders were falling all over themselves to say, "Yeah, but what about Franken?" Isn't this evidence of the very conflation you say nobody is engaging in?

I guess. But I’m seeing a lot more “Franken isn’t Moore” which is certainly selection bias. Regardless, I’m not seeing anyone say that Franken must be held accountable because he’s just like Moore.

Adder 12-18-2017 09:52 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512106)
Referring back to what I was responding to in my original post on this, how so?

Men can’t (or don’t) see what it’s like to be constantly harassed and thus are too quick to explain away what’s trivial out of context.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-18-2017 09:58 PM

Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 512118)
Wait, why is the company on the hook if a group of its employees send each other an e-mail among themselves? I think you are engaged in a misleading material omission in your weird little story.

Because we said they were targeted based on protected status, into which all fell.

Adder 12-18-2017 10:03 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512114)
Here's the thing, if it only takes one woman to fry, every man is toast.

I’m going to say it again: stop portraying career implications with death. It’s inherently obfuscating. And it’s exactly the rhetoric used to undermine Title IX attempts to take campus assaults more seriously.

Quote:

The real war is further from the spotlight, and a man talking about his take like Damon helps others sort out their own world, doesn't it?
To the extent he takes it seriously, sure.

Adder 12-18-2017 10:04 PM

Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512115)
1. No it’s not. It’s whether there’s enough to get to a hearing or trial. If this is limbo, it’s putting the bar just shy of a basketball rim.

2. Let’s say a group of people suffered adverse action because they all joined in circulating the same thing. Looks like they were all targeted. In reality, truth is, people from the same backgrounds tend to have exclusive groups where they communicate things (sometimes prohibited things) with each other.

Half of litigation is getting paid where it’s undeserved and getting nothing where payment is deserved. Hence my enormous respect for the law.

The more you talk about it, the more deserved it sounds.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-18-2017 10:06 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512119)
I guess. But I’m seeing a lot more “Franken isn’t Moore” which is certainly selection bias. Regardless, I’m not seeing anyone say that Franken must be held accountable because he’s just like Moore.

Franken should stay through investigation. The man's been summarily served a professional death sentence based on a photo.

It was a bad photo. But this "If you violate the current subject of most outrage, you must be exiled" shit is overkill. The guy's far more than his worst moment. Most of it quite positive for women.

Adder 12-18-2017 10:08 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512124)
Franken should stay through investigation.

There was an argument for that before he decided to resign. Now? Only if you think “women are liars” is a narrative that needs enabling.

Al gets it. So it’s moot anyway.

Adder 12-18-2017 10:11 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512124)
Franken should stay through investigation. The man's been summarily served a professional death sentence based on a photo.

It was a bad photo. But this "If you violate the current subject of most outrage, you must be exiled" shit is overkill. The guy's far more than his worst moment. Most of it quite positive for women.

He’s not dead. His career isn’t even necessarily dead. Stop suggesting that violating women’s bodies is a small thing while professional consequences are death. It’s the misogyny you’re looking for.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-18-2017 10:21 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512126)
He’s not dead. His career isn’t even necessarily dead. Stop suggesting that violating women’s bodies is a small thing while professional consequences are death. It’s the misogyny you’re looking for.

Stop suggesting a good senator should concede his career for misbehaviors deserving of far less sanction.

Was what he did offensive and stupid? Yes. Is it deserving of loss of his senate seat? Based on allegations to date, unequivocally not.

Adder 12-18-2017 10:25 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512127)
Stop suggesting a good senator should concede his career for misbehaviors deserving of far less sanction.

Was what he did offensive and stupid? Yes. Is it deserving of loss of his senate seat? Based on allegations to date, unequivocally not.

Says the dude.

It's not up to us. It's especially not up to us when the options are taking sexual misconduct seriously or dismissing it.

In a future world that makes fine decisions about the seriousness of types of misconduct, maybe it would be different. We're nit there. Today it's okay or not okay, and Al's alleged conduct isn't okay.

Hank Chinaski 12-18-2017 11:03 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512124)
The guy's far more than his worst moment. Most of it quite positive for women.

How is it positive? If I say I support the equal rights amendment at work i can grab titty at night? When a "hero" of equal rights does something like that it is empowering to the knuckle dragging crowd,

Hank Chinaski 12-18-2017 11:10 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512122)
I’m going to say it again: stop portraying career implications with death. It’s inherently obfuscating. And it’s exactly the rhetoric used to undermine Title IX attempts to take campus assaults more seriously.

Ok. Thanks.

SEC_Chick 12-19-2017 08:54 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512103)

That having been said, I think the most profound think Driver said was that this really is the time for men to listen rather than speak, and I should stop now.

[Followed by 3 more pages of only men discussing these issues]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512111)
It is very hard, isn't it, to be quiet and deferential? I have trouble with it. I wonder how so many women managed to handle it for so long without going crazy?

It seems to be quite hard for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512113)
Meh. I listen to enough men. All day. And I speak plenty. It's hard to shut me up a lot of the time.

Yes. It appears so.

I honestly don't have a strong about the ability of men to have or advocate for whatever opinions they hold on a lot of this sexual misconduct stuff, but I actually prefer it when men just act as they used to, rather than act pretty much the same way, but adopting an I'm With Her persona.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-19-2017 09:21 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512114)
Who you picking? One of the 50% of white women that voted for Trump?

Last night my wife and my daughter, two very strong women (both me too people), had a fight over whether Franken deserved better. Here's the thing, if it only takes one woman to fry, every man is toast. And not just on the underlying behavior, which is all vile, but the nuance with which you discuss it?

And it's all fun when it's big hollywood and political types going up in flames, but that same standard won't apply to Acme Welding and McDonald's franchises in Iowa and those are the places where the volume problems lie. And if there isn't some way for men to understand how can we expect it to get better?

See, my wife and daughter's "me too" men were not in congress and have never been nominated for an Oscar. The real war is further from the spotlight, and a man talking about his take like Damon helps others sort out their own world, doesn't it?


I'm looking forward to seeing this hit law firms and legal departments. There are no shortage of worthy candidates for a public flogging.

One of the things that aggravates me immensely are the surveys of why women leave law firms. Most of them don't include questions about overt discrimination, harassment, assault or rape. They regularly ask about "unintentional discrimination". The Canadian Bar just did one that included harassment. Guess what?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-19-2017 09:25 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512131)
[Followed by 3 more pages of only men discussing these issues]



It seems to be quite hard for you.



Yes. It appears so.


I was trying to respond while adequately appreciating the irony.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-19-2017 09:48 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512129)
How is it positive? If I say I support the equal rights amendment at work i can grab titty at night? When a "hero" of equal rights does something like that it is empowering to the knuckle dragging crowd,

For the 100th time, if we’re to approach this issue seriously, the punishment must fit the crime. That’s a universal notion to be applied to all behavior, no?

Franken has been sentenced excessively and hastily.

And no - it’s not okay to apply overly harsh judgment because he’s a public figure. In the legal realm, that’s selective sentencing. That prosecutors and courts engage in it under the rationalization it deters malfeasance does not make it right. Our courts’ and legislatures’ acceptance of that line of reasoning is disturbing, and underscores how demented our civil and criminal justice systems are.

sebastian_dangerfield 12-19-2017 09:56 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512131)
[Followed by 3 more pages of only men discussing these issues]



It seems to be quite hard for you.



Yes. It appears so.

I honestly don't have a strong about the ability of men to have or advocate for whatever opinions they hold on a lot of this sexual misconduct stuff, but I actually prefer it when men just act as they used to, rather than act pretty much the same way, but adopting an I'm With Her persona.

Virtue signaling = The new plastic fantastic morality

Get with the program. It’s all about self branding, about telecasting knowledge of an issue and self-aggrandizing open-mindedness, or bigoted closed-mindedness, but offering no reasonable solution. No one gives a fuck about serious solutions to anything anymore. Hell, they haven’t for a long fucking time.

“I’m a proud deplorable! Fox News! Fuck yeah!”

“I’m with the pink hats! Revolution! Overturn patriarchy.”

“I’m for awareness of all kinds, generally! I’m enlightened. Where can I march?”

ThurgreedMarshall 12-19-2017 10:14 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512126)
He’s not dead. His career isn’t even necessarily dead. Stop suggesting that violating women’s bodies is a small thing while professional consequences are death. It’s the misogyny you’re looking for.

Question: If he decided to run for Senate again, is he "eligible" in your opinion? Not asking how'd you vote (although I'd be curious since you believe he gets it now). Just wondering if, since he needed to step down, that means he's no longer qualified for the position ever. Or is it just about political effectiveness--as you say--such that if he's voted back in that point goes away?

TM

Replaced_Texan 12-19-2017 10:18 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512131)
[Followed by 3 more pages of only men discussing these issues]

heh

ThurgreedMarshall 12-19-2017 10:35 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512129)
How is it positive? If I say I support the equal rights amendment at work i can grab titty at night? When a "hero" of equal rights does something like that it is empowering to the knuckle dragging crowd,

If Trump actually approached civil rights the way he did rich people's desires, and absolutely hated black people, I'd honestly be torn.

TM

Adder 12-19-2017 11:04 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512136)
Question: If he decided to run for Senate again, is he "eligible" in your opinion? Not asking how'd you vote (although I'd be curious since you believe he gets it now). Just wondering if, since he needed to step down, that means he's no longer qualified for the position ever. Or is it just about political effectiveness--as you say--such that if he's voted back in that point goes away?

TM

When? I don't think 2018 is the right time. I do think with time he could run for senate again and I'd consider voting for him. It matters what he does in the interim, but I think he could earn back the support of the right stakeholders if he approached it the right way.

But for me, it's not just a matter of washing the past away with a vote. He's got to demonstrate that he gets it and has changed. Might still be hard to pick him over a qualified woman though.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-19-2017 12:24 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512120)
Men can’t (or don’t) see what it’s like to be constantly harassed and thus are too quick to explain away what’s trivial out of context.

Often true, but hardly revelatory (IMO). And then there's all the other stuff.

If men can't understand, which is something she actually says, then there would be no point in talking about any of it.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-19-2017 12:27 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512128)
It's not up to us.

Of course it is. You and Flower in particularly, because he represents you. The significance of his position is not that it's a job, but that the people of Minnesota have picked him to represent you.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-19-2017 12:29 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512134)
For the 100th time, if we’re to approach this issue seriously, the punishment must fit the crime.

Why just a question of punishment and an analogy to crime? What about trying to make sure that Minnesotans are well represented, to make the victims whole (or something like it), and to create an equal society?

sebastian_dangerfield 12-19-2017 01:17 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512142)
Why just a question of punishment and an analogy to crime? What about trying to make sure that Minnesotans are well represented, to make the victims whole (or something like it), and to create an equal society?

Those interests neither trump, nor are mutually exclusive with, the interests of fair and equitable punishment.

In situations like this, concerns for the rights of those accused of lesser bad behaviors, like Franken, are heightened. There is nothing more dangerous than a movement immune to criticism.

greatwhitenorthchick 12-19-2017 01:24 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512138)
If Trump actually approached civil rights the way he did rich people's desires, and absolutely hated black people, I'd honestly be torn.

TM

Right. It's kind of like the Joe Biden problem. Absolutely disgraceful to Anita Hill (and yes he apologized but way too late) but sponsored the Violence against Women Act. Supportive of women in the abstract (and probably concretely in some ways), but a piece of shit to one woman in a very high-profile way. Leaving aside his other baggage and just focusing on that one issue, I am torn about someone like that.

Leaving aside the extremes of bad behaviour, the issue has nuances and our political/legal systems don't do well with nuance.

Hank Chinaski 12-19-2017 01:50 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512141)
Of course it is. You and Flower in particularly, because he represents you. The significance of his position is not that it's a job, but that the people of Minnesota have picked him to represent you.

Didn't they also pick, like, hulk Hogan, or someone?

Tyrone Slothrop 12-19-2017 01:55 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512145)
Didn't they also pick, like, hulk Hogan, or someone?

Clearly they go for entertainers.

greatwhitenorthchick 12-19-2017 01:59 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512145)
Didn't they also pick, like, hulk Hogan, or someone?

Hank, you know it was Jesse Ventura. You are just ashamed to admit you know. Admit it.

Not Bob 12-19-2017 02:32 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 512147)
Hank, you know it was Jesse Ventura. You are just ashamed to admit you know. Admit it.

I believe you meant Jesse “the Body” Ventura.

Pretty Little Flower 12-19-2017 06:40 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512142)
Why just a question of punishment and an analogy to crime? What about trying to make sure that Minnesotans are well represented, to make the victims whole (or something like it), and to create an equal society?

Yeah, what about making sure that Minnesotans are well represented, Sebastian? Oh that's right, you don't give a fuck about Minnesotans or about making sure qualified politicians are in office. You just care about yourself and proportionality of offense and punishment. Selfish fuck.

Pretty Little Flower 12-19-2017 06:42 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512143)
There is nothing more dangerous than a movement immune to criticism.

So you finally admit that Trump is dangerous. Bravo. Day late and a dollar short.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 12-19-2017 06:51 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 512144)
Right. It's kind of like the Joe Biden problem. Absolutely disgraceful to Anita Hill (and yes he apologized but way too late) but sponsored the Violence against Women Act. Supportive of women in the abstract (and probably concretely in some ways), but a piece of shit to one woman in a very high-profile way. Leaving aside his other baggage and just focusing on that one issue, I am torn about someone like that.

Leaving aside the extremes of bad behaviour, the issue has nuances and our political/legal systems don't do well with nuance.

I think we really need to talk up Anita Hill for Supreme Court. Making Clarence face her every. single. day. would be well deserved.

Obviously, little memo to next Prez.

Hank Chinaski 12-19-2017 08:58 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 512149)
Yeah, what about making sure that Minnesotans are well represented, Sebastian? Oh that's right, you don't give a fuck about Minnesotans or about making sure qualified politicians are in office. You just care about yourself and proportionality of offense and punishment. Selfish fuck.

Quick question, did you vote for Jesse Ventura, or the simple fuck too simple to beat him?

Adder 12-20-2017 10:56 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512154)
Quick question, did you vote for Jesse Ventura, or the simple fuck too simple to beat him?

It was a three way race between Norm "I wanna be governor so bad I'm going to switch parties so I won't have any primary competition" Coleman and Skip "did you see my last name?" Humphrey. I voted for Humphrey, although I backed a different Dem in the primary.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-20-2017 11:30 AM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512151)
I think we really need to talk up Anita Hill for Supreme Court. Making Clarence face her every. single. day. would be well deserved.

Obviously, little memo to next Prez.

Doesn't sound fun for her.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-20-2017 04:11 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
What is the opposite of "diplomacy"? And what do these clowns think they are doing? Oh, wait:

Quote:

A senior western diplomat, described it as “poor tactics” at the United Nations “but pretty good for Haley 2020 or Haley 2024”, referring to speculation that Haley might run for higher office.

“She’s not going to win any votes in the general assembly or the security council, but she is going to win some votes in the US population,” the western diplomat said.

Tyrone Slothrop 12-21-2017 02:06 PM

Straussian?
 
Interesting discussions of the contradictions in Trump's national-security speech and policy.


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