Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 477722)

Sexy women in bikinis are not "commodified." Their bodies, which men appreciate, are commoditized. But that's not the commoditization that causes problems like Steubenville. It's the commoditization of sexual release that causes problems. If these kids had been raised in a culture where women having sex weren't derided as whores (see the cell phone video of the kid after the rape saying the "whore" deserved it), they'd have had a better attitude toward sex. If they hadn't been raised by idiot conservatives who treat sex as a taboo issue, they'd have respected women, and women would have felt more comfortable being women (i.e., having healthy sex, instead of withholding sex for fear of being ostracized or violating ludicrous religious strictures... except when drunk out of their minds).

These boys viewed sex as a commodity. They viewed women engaging in it as a commodity. When able to take it forcibly it as they were, they did, reprehensibly. Maybe-- just maybe, if we could as a culture discuss sex as adults and, God forbid, drop our silly religious views, and our archaic belief women must be "chaste" (and scorned if she's not) we'd have a lot fewer teens who view sex as a relationship where the man is the aggressor trying to take something from a woman, or manipulate her into doing something.

No shock this crap happens most in backwashes like Ohio. Moronic, ancient values hold strongest in those parts. Jezebel would have us believe football players are mungheads who use words like whore with abandon. It's got nothing to do with sports. It's got everything to do with strange, frustrated people making a sex into a very scarce commodity - something women are afraid to engage in, and angry young men think must be aggressively cajoled from them. "Traditional values."

Originally Posted by Fugee (Post 477730)

It makes sense if you think of rape as about power and control, not about sex.

Originally Posted by Fugee (Post 477733)

The problem with your position is that it makes rape about sex. I think it's fairly well established that rape is about power and control, not sex.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 477735)

That's said all the time. But how has it been established?

ETA: Or to be a little more explicit, one possible way of understanding what these rapists did is to view them as trying to degrade her and using sex (among other things) to do it. But if sex isn't viewed as degrading, then perhaps they wouldn't have raped her.

Obviously, that's severely over-simplified.

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 477734)

I can never fully do that, because it's never fully about power and control. There is always a sexual element.

Originally Posted by Fugee (Post 477730)

I think there are a lot of teaching moments to be had for parents, teachers, coaches, etc. out of this case. I hope they'll go broader than just the conduct of the rapists to the kids who I understand knew what was going on and didn't say anything. The H.S. principal who spoke as part of the sermon talked about how "bystanders" can be an important part of stopping bullying.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 477737)

This is one of the dumber things you've said.

"There is always a sexual element because a sexual act has been performed. Therefore I can't see what is behind it." Brilliant.

Committing the act is almost always about exerting power. Forcing someone to do something against their will is about power. That's why old women are sometimes raped. Sex is so packed with all kinds of meaning in our society (often, negative meaning--especially for women) that forcing someone to degrade themselves through a sex act makes the rapist feel powerful. And forcing yourself on someone sexually when they don't want it is quite clearly an act of power.

Shit, look at rape throughout history. Women were considered the spoils of war and raping them was the ultimate act of dominance over a foe. The rape of slaves is quite clearly about control. Rape is about exerting strength over someone else. It's about instilling fear and control.

Maybe I just don't understand your point.

TM

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 477736)

Wait a minute. They inserted a finger into her, and thought about peeing on her. They weren't looking for sexual release, they were treating her like a toy to mess with.

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 477713)

You raise some interesting questions. I do believe that we live in a culture where sex is a commodity and that leads to a collective thought process that devalues women.

However, the question I wonder most about is, "At what point does appreciation of the female form turn into devaluation?" I love women and the female form. I also respect women very much. I do not criticize women who appreciate the male form, so I like to think I have no double standard. I recognize that the relative positions of power between men and women and the objectification and commoditization (is that a word?) of women in our society means that my Top 20 posts are a product of the problem* or, worse yet, part of the problem.

So, what the fuck am I saying? Not much so far. I think the media and advertisers and popular culture don't just program people. They give us what we want. We program them. And what we want is more of what we already have. It's self-fulfilling. I love sexy women. I spend money on things that feature sexy women. I'm provided with more sexy women.

But I have never in my life thought it was okay to assault and degrade a woman in the manner those kids did. I am fairly certain that I would do my best to put a stop to something like that if I were present. I think what happened was absolutely disgusting. I'd like to think I was raised right and can balance out my appreciation for sex and the female form with a healthy respect of women. I can't say unequivocally that these kids weren't raised right because I have no idea. But I'm sure they were not raised right. And I'm sure there isn't much oversight in their lives. And I'm sure their status as athletes in a town where people love their football players and have little else, means they have had license to act like assholes with little repurcussion. All of those things, combined with our culture which glorifies men who have had a lot of sex and shames women who do the same combine to create situations like this.

And this isn't new. This type of shit surely happened when I was growing up and back then, there was no such thing as social networks and the internet. Back then you were probably assaulted and if you wanted to hold someone accountable you were labeled a whore in a slam book or whispered about and the effect was the same.

So, people keep asking for a solution. It's easy to say that parents need to be more responsible or to raise their children right. Never happen. It's easy to say that we shouldn't make tits and ass commodities. Never happen. Maybe the answer is required sex education classes that cover these topics. Maybe police need to speak to children at schools about these types of crimes and how they destroy people. There are no hard and fast answers to this shit.

But I'll tell you this: The next person that says, "These boys' lives are ruined," should have their face smashed in, because they forfeit their futures when they assaulted that girl, talked about pissing on her unconscious body for money, sent videos and photos of her around to everyone and laughed their asses off while doing it.

TM

*In that I am as indoctrinated into thinking that it is okay to post photos of tits and ass as any advertiser who thinks it's okay to use tits and ass to sell beer.

Originally Posted by ltl/fb (Post 477715)

It wouldn't have been a funny joke and it's an abysmal insult, but maybe my posting skills are in some now isolated part of my brain. And I think neurological repair is all over, so how it is now is pretty much how it's going to be.

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 477741)

A big 2, except for one thing.

I think the parents and the town gets off too easy. They should be held to account for their indulgence of these boys, as should the townspeople. This girl was threatened by members of the boys' families and by local "boosters" of the football team.

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 477728)

Thanks! (Although I am not really sure what it means to be the Dennis Miller of indie rock references. ^And I had no idea about the whole O'Reilly show thing.^ ***I mean, what the fuck is that all about?***)

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 477734)

I can never fully do that, because it's never fully about power and control. There is always a sexual element.

Originally Posted by taxwonk (Post 477745)

The sexual element is that it is such a powerful social taboo.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 477706)

Fucking's the best thing any human can be doing. Eating and drinking come second (not necessarily in that order).