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-   -   Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883)

LessinSF 10-02-2019 12:35 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525289)
This is not a bad first response to Pompeo:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EF0AxnkW...jpg&name=small

I'm not sure what gives Pompeo the ostensible authority to tell employees to ignore a facially valid subpoena.

So you agree with me. If presented with Executive defiance, Congress' remedy is impeachment. That is, in short, what Schiff was saying.

Adder 10-02-2019 12:43 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
I'm a bad person because I hope that Bernie's cardiac episode will cause him to drop out of the presidential race (while making a full and speedy recovery).

If nothing else, it helps to winnow the field but it also will bring clarity that wouldn't be available if it comes down to a three way Biden-Warren-Bernie race.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 12:55 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525333)
1. You ignore my point about about introducing instrinsic valuation to the discussion.

I am not ignoring it. I have assessed its intrinsic value and found it to be near-zero. Coincidentally, it's market value is also zero, judging from what I paid to read it on this chat board. You may think that the latter assessment is not right, an instance of market failure, but if you want to persuade people that things have an intrinsic value that is more robust for some purposes than market value, you are going to have to work a lot harder to make that case.

We all get the concept in principle. My dog likes to lick me but has figured out that I don't like it as much as she does, so she does this little thing when she wants affection, slipping her tongue in and out of her mouth as if licking the air in front of her nose -- it's super cute, and it did not cost me anything to buy, since she's a rescue dog and all, but it has obvious enormous intrinsic value.

Your challenge is to take the obvious point that market values aren't the be-all-and-end-all of human existence, and to build on that to, uh, go wherever it is you want to go with that. Maybe some underpants gnomes would get you closer, analytically?

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2. I cannot hire people without certain credentials because the guilds prohibit it. That's the whole point.
Which "guilds" prohibit it? The fishmongers? The coopers? A moment ago you were making a point about how everyone unrealistically demands degrees that are unnecessary, but now you have segued to something more archaic. Maybe the guilds perceive an intrinsic value to those degrees that you have missed? That's the thing about intrinsic value -- it's a little squirrelly to pin down.

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I've managed a lot more people than you have. I'm not bragging. It's just dumb circumstance that I happened to manage people, and trust me -- I didn't want to do it and don't want to do it again.
Algorithms, dude. That's how we do it now.

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I found credentials (advanced degrees and certifications) were really poor indicators of who could succeed in a position. Because I like to do things like this, I gave huge responsibility to people I judged to be smart based on other factors. I gave one a five figure raise. I never had a problem. Except for the people who had credentials, who really resented taking orders from those who didn't. But YMMV.
Wait, so the guilds didn't prevent you from hiring the people you wanted to hire? Will you make up your mind?

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3. Re zoning, agreed. As I said, there are numerous ways we rig the system.
Kumbaya, dude. Once we fix the zoning, will that fix congressional dysfunction?

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 01:02 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525334)
Oh, you're quick to cite the environment. Why? Because that's one where you can duck the issues I raised.

Yes, ducking. That must be what I'm doing.

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"Look, I care about something the GOP does not!"
Didn't you tell me that the right cares about climate change? It's hard to keep up with your mood shifts.

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You're picking and choosing what you care about...
I believe my point was that there is congressional disfunction because we lack consensus, and our political system requires a lot of consensus to get things done.

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BTW, I'm with you. I don't really want to change the system.
When did I say I didn't want to change the system?

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I'm only interested in cutting through the bullshit "fixes" both parties are offering. We won't really ever tackle inequality. I'll just have the satisfaction of saying, "I knew that," point at upper middle class Ds doing their hand-wringing and lamenting how the evil Rs fuck the poor and say, "they know it too... they just lack the balls to admit their selfishness."
Yes, you like to enjoy the privileges you have while feeling superior to everyone who wants change.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 01:03 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 525335)
So you agree with me. If presented with Executive defiance, Congress' remedy is impeachment. That is, in short, what Schiff was saying.

*A* remedy is impeachment. I do not believe it is the *only* remedy for, e.g., a refusal to produce records or appear to testify.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-02-2019 01:16 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525338)
Yes, ducking. That must be what I'm doing.



Didn't you tell me that the right cares about climate change? It's hard to keep up with your mood shifts.



I believe my point was that there is congressional disfunction because we lack consensus, and our political system requires a lot of consensus to get things done.



When did I say I didn't want to change the system?



Yes, you like to enjoy the privileges you have while feeling superior to everyone who wants change.

Real change would involve a scenario in which you earn about 30% less than now, and there are minimal if any future increases for you. You good with that?

Right. Hop in the limo.

It’s okay. You just had the misfortune of being born into a situation where you couldn’t really desire true meaningful economic change. We’re all conflicted about that... terrible privilege it is. But we bear it. Kudos to you on adopting right wing talking points about the wisdom of the market when someone starts prattling on about “intrinsic valuations.” That’s the spirit, old boy!

Hank Chinaski 10-02-2019 01:21 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525338)
When did I say I didn't want to change the system?

In Law School in a jurisprudence course we were taught about a movement called "Critical Legal Studies." It was a group of peeps that wanted to bring down the system, but was realistic enough to know that would never happen from the outside- it was centered at a school in Boston that was well-regarded, so its grads could move into the upper tier of firms.

The plan was to ingratiate oneself into the team working on the next big brief to fuck the environment, or the people, etc. THEN the night BEFORE the brief is due the "insider" will do shit like dump a virus into the computers or break the copy machines or fax machines to tank the effort. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

Ever break a fax machine?

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 01:30 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525340)
Real change would involve a scenario in which you earn about 30% less than now, and there are minimal if any future increases for you. You good with that?

I could be OK with that, if other things change too. Why minimal increases? I am helping to run a company that is growing rapidly. Does your Marxism mean I don't get to see the upside?

But I seriously question the premise. What do you believe is inflating my earnings? There are not a lot of people who do what I do. What change do I get?

Quote:

Kudos to you on adopting right wing talking points about the wisdom of the market when someone starts prattling on about “intrinsic valuations.”
I bet I have read a lot more Karl Marx than you have, and I also have spent a long time as an antitrust lawyer, so I don't need you to condescend to me about the wisdom or failings of either.

Replaced_Texan 10-02-2019 02:01 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
https://s.mltshp.com/r/1H042

BTW

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 02:09 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

You talk about “non-carbonated fraud” that WeWork may have committed. Do you think there will be investigations?

I don’t know. To be fair, I don’t think anyone’s accused them of presenting numbers that were fraudulent. There have been some postings about the way they were classifying expenses. I don’t know that it’s illegal, but the fact that someone took out three-quarters of a billion dollars and you’re going to have 15,000 employees, I would imagine that somewhere between 1,000 and 3,000 thought they were going to be millionaires in a couple weeks, and they’re getting zero. There’s going to be a lot of anger toward Adam Neumann. I don’t know how that manifests itself. There’s definitely going to be civil suits. There’s definitely going to be lawsuits. But it will be interesting if an attorney general sees a path to the governor’s mansion by filing some sort of suit. We have not heard the last of this. Adam Neumann fired? He was liberated. This guy just played this perfectly. Could you imagine what his life would be like right now? If he was still CEO? Showing up every day to an office where he had sold $750 million and everybody else was trying to figure out how they were going to pay the rent on the new apartment they had moved into because they thought they had $7 million in We stock?

It really makes you rethink that picture of Neumann walking around barefoot in the middle of the tempest.

Why wouldn’t you be happy? You haven’t even begun to see the anger that will be unleashed on Adam Neumann. He has 15,000 people right now who are stuck cleaning up. They feel like circus clowns shoveling the shit behind the elephant of Adam Neumann. He has taken $750 million and left a toxic-waste cleanup.

Is this a case of self-delusion? Did Adam Neumann believe his own story?

I don’t know. I speak from some experience as a CEO in the ’90s in the internet days: If you tell a 30-year-old male he’s Jesus Christ, he’s inclined to believe you.
link

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-02-2019 03:29 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525340)
Real change would involve a scenario in which you earn about 30% less than now, and there are minimal if any future increases for you. You good with that?

Right. Hop in the limo.

It’s okay. You just had the misfortune of being born into a situation where you couldn’t really desire true meaningful economic change. We’re all conflicted about that... terrible privilege it is. But we bear it. Kudos to you on adopting right wing talking points about the wisdom of the market when someone starts prattling on about “intrinsic valuations.” That’s the spirit, old boy!

I consider real change where Hank earns 30% less.

Pretty Little Flower 10-02-2019 04:22 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 525341)
In Law School in a jurisprudence course we were taught about a movement called "Critical Legal Studies." It was a group of peeps that wanted to bring down the system, but was realistic enough to know that would never happen from the outside- it was centered at a school in Boston that was well-regarded, so its grads could move into the upper tier of firms.

The plan was to ingratiate oneself into the team working on the next big brief to fuck the environment, or the people, etc. THEN the night BEFORE the brief is due the "insider" will do shit like dump a virus into the computers or break the copy machines or fax machines to tank the effort. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!

Ever break a fax machine?

As an outsider, you can throw yourself against the armor of The Machine over and over, and you'll just end up another bug smashed on The Man's windshield. But once you're on the inside, all you need to do is remove a few key bolts, and The Machine will come crashing down upon itself in a cataclysm that is as beautiful as it is violent. More than a few Innocents will certainly be lost in the wreckage, but out of the ashes of The Machine will arise a new Hope, and without the numbing consumerism of the Post-Capitalist Consumption Society, minds and souls will be free, the boundaries between art and everyday life will be erased, and each person's every act will be an expression of pure egalitarian creativity and Love. It will be like the world that we read about on Instagram.

Hank Chinaski 10-02-2019 04:38 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 525346)
As an outsider, you can throw yourself against the armor of The Machine over and over, and you'll just end up another bug smashed on The Man's windshield. But once you're on the inside, all you need to do is remove a few key bolts, and The Machine will come crashing down upon itself in a cataclysm that is as beautiful as it is violent. More than a few Innocents will certainly be lost in the wreckage, but out of the ashes of The Machine will arise a new Hope, and without the numbing consumerism of the Post-Capitalist Consumption Society, minds and souls will be free, the boundaries between art and everyday life will be erased, and each person's every act will be an expression of pure egalitarian creativity and Love. It will be like the world that we read about on Instagram.

Luke Skywalker wasn’t a Stormtrooper man.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-02-2019 04:43 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

I could be OK with that, if other things change too. Why minimal increases? I am helping to run a company that is growing rapidly. Does your Marxism mean I don't get to see the upside?
I'm not mandating minimal increases. I'm saying the changes would cause you to see minimal increases. If workers at the bottom have to be paid more, to compensate them for their real value, it's got to come from somewhere.

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But I seriously question the premise. What do you believe is inflating my earnings?
The market is perverted. It assumes a GCs have value far in excess of what they're actually worth. GC'ing is easy. You think in broad strokes and hire outside counsel to do the grunt work. You get paid for "strategy" in many instances. That's cheap thinking.

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There are not a lot of people who do what I do. What change do I get?
You get to stay well compensated, but not at a huge multiplier relative to employees below, as their values are increased.

Yes, this involves some instrinsic valuation. I don't like it either, but to go back to something TM wrote a few weeks ago, CEO pay is out of whack. It seems CEO and exec pay is based on nothing, just as you say instrinsic value is ascertained. Why is one bullshit number better than another?

Was Michael Eisner worth $150 mil a year? Is anyone, ever?

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I bet I have read a lot more Karl Marx than you have, and I also have spent a long time as an antitrust lawyer, so I don't need you to condescend to me about the wisdom or failings of either.
I bet you have. But that's immaterial. What's material is whether you can consider what you've memorized and use it in independent thoughts of your own. Whether you can take the concepts and expand upon them with an open mind. Intrinsic value has a place in the future, I believe, because the market is delivering perverted results. Unless, of course, you think a hedge fund manager should earn 1000X more per year than an emergency room surgeon.

Intrinsic valuation is a form of positive elitism. It's helpful. Too many people do boring things and only do them for money in the current system. Does the world need more analysts? More lawyers? More executive VPs of operations?

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 05:00 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525348)
I'm not mandating minimal increases. I'm saying the changes would cause you to see minimal increases. If workers at the bottom have to be paid more, to compensate them for their real value, it's got to come from somewhere.

But you're just making shit up. Maybe my company does a good job of paying people what they're "worth," and in fact we're all going to make more money because of all the increased spending by previously undercompensated people in the rest of the country. Moreover, if you think you're making things better, then there's going to be more growth, and we'll all see more than minimal increases.

Quote:

The market is perverted. It assumes a GCs have value far in excess of what they're actually worth. GC'ing is easy. You think in broad strokes and hire outside counsel to do the grunt work. You get paid for "strategy" in many instances. That's cheap thinking.
That's nonsense. No one in the market is thinking about a GC's value in the abstract. They are looking at what they'll have to pay to get a person in the door, and what the gain is relative to not hiring that person. GC'ing may or may not be easy, but the question for the employer is, what happens if I hire a less qualified person (and I'm talking about qualifications, not credentials)? You may scoff at strategy, but the reason why I get my jobs is that I have knowledge about the world and business which is valuable to my employers and which not a lot of people have.

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You get to stay well compensated, but not at a huge multiplier relative to employees below, as their values are increased.
Why? What if the difference between what I do and what they do is worth lots to the company?

Quote:

Yes, this involves some instrinsic valuation.
Since you can't explain how that works, it appears that's a euphemism for "making shit up."

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I don't like it either, but to go back to something TM wrote a few weeks ago, CEO pay is out of whack. It seems CEO and exec pay is based on nothing, just as you say instrinsic value is ascertained. Why is one bullshit number better than another?

Was Michael Eisner worth $150 mil a year? Is anyone, ever?
One can think that CEO pay is out of whack (and identify specific reasons for that) without thinking that everyone's pay across the whole economy is out of whack and needs to be replaced with a number that you made up.

Quote:

I bet you have. But that's immaterial. What's material is whether you can consider what you've memorized and use it in independent thoughts of your own. Whether you can take the concepts and expand upon them with an open mind. Intrinsic value has a place in the future, I believe, because the market is delivering perverted results. Unless, of course, you think a hedge fund manager should earn 1000X more per year than an emergency room surgeon.

Intrinsic valuation is a form of positive elitism. It's helpful. Too many people do boring things and only do them for money in the current system. Does the world need more analysts? More lawyers? More executive VPs of operations?
I think you are saying that you aspire to making shit up as a way of making a living, and I say, good luck to you.

ThurgreedMarshall 10-02-2019 05:01 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525340)
Real change would involve a scenario in which you earn about 30% less than now, and there are minimal if any future increases for you. You good with that?

When you pitch yourself do you let everyone know that you are the absolute world champion of pulling ridiculous, made-up bullshit out of your surely already overly-stretched out asshole?

Real change would involve rethinking all kinds of corporate subsidies and a reduction in defense and incarceration spending and an actual investment in our infrastructure and health and other safety net systems.

TM

Pretty Little Flower 10-02-2019 05:11 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 525350)
When you pitch yourself do you let everyone know that you are the absolute world champion of pulling ridiculous, made-up bullshit out of your surely already overly-stretched out asshole?

TM

He used to, but that got kind of long-winded. Now he just has "24-7-365 Bloviation" tattooed on his forehead. Helvetica font. It doesn't convey the same nuance as his prior pitch, but it gets the point across.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 06:01 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 525351)
He used to, but that got kind of long-winded. Now he just has "24-7-365 Bloviation" tattooed on his forehead. Helvetica font. It doesn't convey the same nuance as his prior pitch, but it gets the point across.

When everyone is paid according to their intrinsic value, there'll be a lot fewer people working for companies, and there'll be more artists, and cooler fonts than Helvetica (imagine!). Information only wants to be free because it's intrinsic value isn't recognized.

Hank Chinaski 10-02-2019 06:08 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525352)
When everyone is paid according to their intrinsic value, there'll be a lot fewer people working for companies, and there'll be more artists, and cooler fonts than Helvetica (imagine!). Information only wants to be free because it's intrinsic value isn't recognized.

Careful what you wish for, if I’m only paid what I’m worth I can’t spend time giving you free legal advice on the phone.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-02-2019 06:13 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525352)
When everyone is paid according to their intrinsic value, there'll be a lot fewer people working for companies, and there'll be more artists, and cooler fonts than Helvetica (imagine!). Information only wants to be free because it's intrinsic value isn't recognized.

Oooh, dazzling them with Marxist economics. Tell me, how do you relate the extraction of surplus labor value to intrinsic value? Must you always extract some surplus labor value to deal with transaction costs or do costs associated with trading and monetizing the product of labor figure in to intrinsic value?

ThurgreedMarshall 10-02-2019 06:59 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower (Post 525351)
He used to, but that got kind of long-winded. Now he just has "24-7-365 Bloviation" tattooed on his forehead. Helvetica font. It doesn't convey the same nuance as his prior pitch, but it gets the point across.

Found this for you:

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com...rip=info&w=600

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 10-02-2019 07:04 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525354)
Oooh, dazzling them with Marxist economics. Tell me, how do you relate the extraction of surplus labor value to intrinsic value? Must you always extract some surplus labor value to deal with transaction costs or do costs associated with trading and monetizing the product of labor figure in to intrinsic value?

Take your false consciousness somewhere else. The lumpenproletariat may fall for your stuff, but not me.

Hank Chinaski 10-02-2019 07:59 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525356)
Take your false consciousness somewhere else. The lumpenproletariat may fall for your stuff, but not me.

The more I think about it, when Penske and I were working together here to take down al Queda, you used your position of power to delete critical communications. And I felt I needed to explain Critical Legal Studies to you? Silly me, eh Comrade?

sebastian_dangerfield 10-03-2019 09:34 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

But you're just making shit up. Maybe my company does a good job of paying people what they're "worth," and in fact we're all going to make more money because of all the increased spending by previously undercompensated people in the rest of the country. Moreover, if you think you're making things better, then there's going to be more growth, and we'll all see more than minimal increases.
Except that's not what happens. The debate about whether increased minimum wages lift all boats is nowhere near resolved.

The argument that increased minimum wage will come out of the pockets of shareholders, owners, and management has as much heft as the argument you raise.

Quote:

That's nonsense. No one in the market is thinking about a GC's value in the abstract. They are looking at what they'll have to pay to get a person in the door, and what the gain is relative to not hiring that person. GC'ing may or may not be easy, but the question for the employer is, what happens if I hire a less qualified person (and I'm talking about qualifications, not credentials)? You may scoff at strategy, but the reason why I get my jobs is that I have knowledge about the world and business which is valuable to my employers and which not a lot of people have.
I don't scoff at strategy. I'm merely suggesting that sort of skill, which I don't think anyone has found terribly mentally taxing (YMMV depending on industry*) is overvalued. But that's just one of loads of skills that enjoy unwarranted premiums do to lack of information among the public. If a laymen knew the ease with which all sorts of professional jobs can be performed, the value of endless types of professionals and managers would fall radically overnight.

We profit from, I believe the term is, "informational asymmetries." A discussion that introduces intrinsic value, which is nothing but a focus on the basic value of something before the exchange value is established, would help to lower our exchange value.

A really amusing way of effecting a correction would be for someone on a big network to put out a primetime ten part series, taking ten overpaid-for jobs, and analyzing each, with whistle-blowers making admissions about what the jobs really involve. Call it, "What Your [Insert Job] Really Does."

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Why? What if the difference between what I do and what they do is worth lots to the company?
I think the multiplier between the highest paid job and the lowest paid job would begin to revert to something like we saw in the 50s, when there was a more corporate, as opposed to deal-obsessed, economy.

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Since you can't explain how that works, it appears that's a euphemism for "making shit up."
It's simple. Introduce an intrinsic value into the debate and let behavioral economics do the rest. Capital is always looking for cost savings, and it hates labor costs most, at all tiers. If we give it the intellectual underpinning to more aggressively cut middle to upper management and professional service wages, and the political cover of doing so to facilitate more pay to lower end workers, the arguments will get traction.

We already have a form of intrinsic valuation of labor: Minimum wage. That's a baseline value assigned to an hour of labor, regardless of what exchange value would dictate. In a socialist or communist system, one could assign all sorts of intrinsic values to different types of work. But again, we needn't do that. All we need to do is start the conversation about intrinsic valuation here and let it become an academic scaffolding for the argument that management and professionals are overpaid. Market forces would do the rest. (It would work hand in hand with tech, which is already doing this in a different manner.)

The argument that the upper middle class is actually stealing the most from the economy and keeping the poor poor, rather than the 1%, is quietly gaining traction already. We've all seen articles about that, and there's some truth to it.

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One can think that CEO pay is out of whack (and identify specific reasons for that) without thinking that everyone's pay across the whole economy is out of whack and needs to be replaced with a number that you made up.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/t...-middle-class/

And cited within it: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...t-america.html

I could cite a bunch more like that.

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I think you are saying that you aspire to making shit up as a way of making a living, and I say, good luck to you.
I think you're in the limo, humming along with the rest of us to Phil Ochs.
______
* YMMV, but law, regulatory issues, etc. are a limited chessboard, involving a lot of baseline manipulation of humans. I think the ability to manipulate situations and people is at least as much if not more innate than learned. You either know how to manipulate or you don't, and while I think a bit of it can be learned, the ability to do it at the level required to be an effective strategist is in your bones, or it isn't.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 09:56 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525358)

I think you're in the limo, humming along with the rest of us to Phil Ochs.

What is it about limos that Sebby hates so much?

sebastian_dangerfield 10-03-2019 10:15 AM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525359)
What is it about limos that Sebby hates so much?

Nothing. But I do prefer those black Suburbans you frequently get with Uber XL. Since the skiing accident, it's hard to bend down into town cars (or any car).

Tyrone Slothrop 10-03-2019 01:16 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525358)
Except that's not what happens. The debate about whether increased minimum wages lift all boats is nowhere near resolved.

I thought you were proposing something more profound that raising the minimum wage, but I guess neither of us really know what you're proposing. My assumption is that spreading money around more equitably would be better for everyone, in the aggregate, and if you disagree with that then I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea.

Quote:

I don't scoff at strategy. I'm merely suggesting that sort of skill, which I don't think anyone has found terribly mentally taxing (YMMV depending on industry*) is overvalued. But that's just one of loads of skills that enjoy unwarranted premiums do to lack of information among the public. If a laymen knew the ease with which all sorts of professional jobs can be performed, the value of endless types of professionals and managers would fall radically overnight.
That would make sense if professionals and managers were hired by laymen with no familiarity with their jobs, but it turns out that's not how the world works.

Quote:

We profit from, I believe the term is, "informational asymmetries." A discussion that introduces intrinsic value, which is nothing but a focus on the basic value of something before the exchange value is established, would help to lower our exchange value.

A really amusing way of effecting a correction would be for someone on a big network to put out a primetime ten part series, taking ten overpaid-for jobs, and analyzing each, with whistle-blowers making admissions about what the jobs really involve. Call it, "What Your [Insert Job] Really Does."
In my job, the information assymmetry is that I know stuff about the law and compliance, and my colleagues don't. So they pay me to help them understand what they need to do. This seems to create value. Not clear why you think it needs correction.

Quote:

I think the multiplier between the highest paid job and the lowest paid job would begin to revert to something like we saw in the 50s, when there was a more corporate, as opposed to deal-obsessed, economy.
If you're focussed on the highest-paid jobs, then try a corporate governance fix.

Quote:

It's simple. Introduce an intrinsic value into the debate and let behavioral economics do the rest. Capital is always looking for cost savings, and it hates labor costs most, at all tiers. If we give it the intellectual underpinning to more aggressively cut middle to upper management and professional service wages, and the political cover of doing so to facilitate more pay to lower end workers, the arguments will get traction.

We already have a form of intrinsic valuation of labor: Minimum wage. That's a baseline value assigned to an hour of labor, regardless of what exchange value would dictate. In a socialist or communist system, one could assign all sorts of intrinsic values to different types of work. But again, we needn't do that. All we need to do is start the conversation about intrinsic valuation here and let it become an academic scaffolding for the argument that management and professionals are overpaid. Market forces would do the rest. (It would work hand in hand with tech, which is already doing this in a different manner.)

The argument that the upper middle class is actually stealing the most from the economy and keeping the poor poor, rather than the 1%, is quietly gaining traction already. We've all seen articles about that, and there's some truth to it.
1. Introduce an intrinsic value into the debate
2. ??????
3. Social justice and peace on Earth

Sounds so crazy it just might work.


I'm sure you could, and they would be equally unresponsive to what I said, which was, "One can think that CEO pay is out of whack (and identify specific reasons for that) without thinking that everyone's pay across the whole economy is out of whack and needs to be replaced with a number that you made up."

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I think you're in the limo, humming along with the rest of us to Phil Ochs.
Ms Slothrop did the driving this am, but there's certainly no limo.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 01:18 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525360)
Nothing. But I do prefer those black Suburbans you frequently get with Uber XL. Since the skiing accident, it's hard to bend down into town cars (or any car).

Are limos even a thing any more? I mean, other than for Prom? Are you thinking liberals shouldn't go to prom? I just don't get it.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-03-2019 01:47 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525362)
Are limos even a thing any more? I mean, other than for Prom? Are you thinking liberals shouldn't go to prom? I just don't get it.

His point is, all of us are overvalued, the beneficiaries of a rigged system that helps us and keeps the proles down, and we are deluded in our bleeting about Trump because we don't want real change, we just want a different leader who will preserve our privileges.

LessinSF 10-03-2019 01:52 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525362)
Are limos even a thing any more? I mean, other than for Prom? Are you thinking liberals shouldn't go to prom? I just don't get it.

ThroneBanes are my thing, on Grab, which defeated Uber in SE Asia. I still want to short the company, but the new CEO is doing a good job of selling its unprofitable extensions, which is resulting in consolidation in the industry, which is limiting the turf war pricing to the bottom. Not that I dont enjoy that, e.g. a $3.50 ride from the airport this morning.

LessinYangon, Myanmar

LessinSF 10-03-2019 01:57 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 525263)
Try again. Your challenge wasn't re whether the people taking the position are assholes, but whether any position they take is non-assholish. Strike one at changing your own question. Care to fail again?

Crickets. What do I win? I admit when I am wrong, Sebby does too. You?

LessinYangon

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 01:59 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 525365)
Crickets. What do I win? I admit when I am wrong, Sebby does too. You?

LessinYangon

dude, you're just the wrong guy to post about assholes

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 01:59 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525363)
His point is, all of us are overvalued, the beneficiaries of a rigged system that helps us and keeps the proles down, and we are deluded in our bleeting about Trump because we don't want real change, we just want a different leader who will preserve our privileges.

man, and I thought he was just pimping rides.

Tyrone Slothrop 10-03-2019 02:04 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525366)
dude, you're just the wrong guy to post about assholes

That seems like a harsh way of admitting that he was right.

Hank Chinaski 10-03-2019 02:06 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525366)
dude, you're just the wrong guy to post about assholes

FWIW, I'm met about 12 GAs and I have to say Less IRL is the furthest from his persona- truly a sweet guy. And he had the sense not to fuck paigow, when that was an option. Less, please confirm?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 02:09 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 525369)
FWIW, I'm met about 12 GAs and I have to say Less IRL is the furthest from his persona- truly a sweet guy. And he had the sense not to fuck paigow, when that was an option. Less, please confirm?

is today sensitive day on the LT board or something? I meant asshole in a nice way, of course. I'm sure Less is a sweetie.

You, though, more of a plain old asshole.

sebastian_dangerfield 10-03-2019 02:37 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 525362)
Are limos even a thing any more? I mean, other than for Prom? Are you thinking liberals shouldn't go to prom? I just don't get it.

I hear you, but what am I supposed to substitute? Porsche Progressive?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 10-03-2019 02:58 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 525371)
I hear you, but what am I supposed to substitute? Porsche Progressive?

I prefer Single-Malt Progressive myself.

Adder 10-03-2019 02:58 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 525363)
His point is, all of us are overvalued, the beneficiaries of a rigged system that helps us and keeps the proles down, and we are deluded in our bleeting about Trump because we don't want real change, we just want a different leader who will preserve our privileges.

Which why we're all so excited about Biden...

sebastian_dangerfield 10-03-2019 02:59 PM

Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same
 
Quote:

I thought you were proposing something more profound that raising the minimum wage, but I guess neither of us really know what you're proposing. My assumption is that spreading money around more equitably would be better for everyone, in the aggregate, and if you disagree with that then I'm not sure why you think it's a good idea.
I don't disagree with that. I just think it's better done within commerce, within businesses, rather than through tax policy, which introduces a costly, slow, and inefficient middle man for no reason.

Quote:

That would make sense if professionals and managers were hired by laymen with no familiarity with their jobs, but it turns out that's not how the world works.
In really big corps, they are approved by clueless boards all day long. In small to mid sized corps you see them hired by people with limited familiarity with the jobs as well. All the time. This is why there are so many terrible hires. At the first stage of hiring, HR, which is clueless on almost everything, brings you a pile of acceptable resumes. What the fuck does HR know about vetting talent? HR is comprised almost entirely of people with not talent. It's where dumbest lackeys congeal like bacon grease in the corner of a griddle.

Quote:

In my job, the information assymmetry is that I know stuff about the law and compliance, and my colleagues don't. So they pay me to help them understand what they need to do. This seems to create value. Not clear why you think it needs correction.
I don't want to correct that. I want to correct the asymmetry between what buyers of professional work, who don't know how easy much of it actually is, and sellers, who've no incentive to let them know how easy it is.

Quote:

If you're focussed on the highest-paid jobs, then try a corporate governance fix.
Attacking the cronyism on boards is a great idea.

Quote:

1. Introduce an intrinsic value into the debate
2. ??????
3. Social justice and peace on Earth
Think of like adding a few drips of food coloring to a glass of water. Or maybe cancer is a good analogy. All your need to do is introduce the idea of intrinsic value as a way for shareholders to pare professional services and higher management costs and they'll run with it. Hell, they'll run with any idea that allows them to find even a tiny bit of profit.

If the idea is articulated well, and that's nothing more than well done PR, it metastasizes. Look at how an idea like "fake news" caught fire and is now all over the place.

Five or six SEO pros and few PR people could have people holding "intrinsic value to workers now!" banners at Warren and Bernie rallies (and maybe even Trump ones) within a month.

Quote:

I'm sure you could, and they would be equally unresponsive to what I said, which was, "One can think that CEO pay is out of whack (and identify specific reasons for that) without thinking that everyone's pay across the whole economy is out of whack and needs to be replaced with a number that you made up."
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying introduce the concept and it will lead to people pushing for lower prices for professional services and arguing that management should have lower wages. How does it work from there? I don't know, but I know in a world where everyone is looking to cut costs, it'll get traction.


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