Re: help! save me!
 

And, in fairness, BMW and Benz managed to fuck themselves up on their own, so we can't say for certain that Saab wouldn't have achieved mediocrity w/o GM.

Re: help! save me!
 

i don't get the argument that we need them for security, like a big war requires taking over those factories. we have foreign implant factories here now. we can take them over, no?

Re: help! save me!
 

There are no non-political arguments for keeping them except for the psychological impact of a failure domestically, increased burdens on the pension guarantee corp (I'm not even sure that's real... I think I read somewhere that pension obligations are ok) and the global perception that this country is in financial freefall.

The psychological impact will be incredible and it will tarnish our perception abroad. But who knows? Maybe that kind of commitment to creative destruction will show us to be adults. I don't know... I do know that it will stoke a huge class warfare industry in the Midwest based on the complaint that the banks got bailed while the little union guy got fucked.

But then, this is all academic. GM will get a bailout. Obama is way too close to Andy Stern and the Dems would never allow something so damaging to union voters to occur on their watch. It'll happen and GM will stumble through more decades of shitty vehicles, bloated management and battles with unions over their workers' rights to smoke while operating the assembly line.

Re: help! save me!
 

Not sure I agree. BMW and Benz are still making some good products, and at least in my mind have always been way more reliable than Saab.

Also, both are profitable (or have been).

Re: help! save me!
 

While I agree, I guess the thinking is that the domestic companies won't force us to take them over (they will just sell to the government at a tidy profit instead).

Re: help! save me!
 

What happened to change? Are our hopes to be dashed already? I still believe.

Re: help! save me!
 

I think that having a concern over a million plus jobs isn't just political. A lot of lives would be destroyed if the automakers went down. Presumably, some industrious sort would be able to pick up the more valuable and productive people / sections, but letting them fail would have a huge impact on all of the country, not just parts where plants exist.

Re: help! save me!
 

Except I don't believe those numbers. A chapter 11 doesn't mean every job tied to the industry goes away.

ETA: The argument for bailing them out has always been that they are a huge part of the economy. Given the rise of imports and their continuing ineptitude, I don't know if this is true any more. Sure they are big, but unlike the banks, they are no longer part of the infrasctructure of the economy.

But it isn't an easy call, and I agree with Sebby that ultimately there is no doubt that the big three will get their own bailout.

Re: help! save me!
 

Put somewhat differently, I heard Daniel Gross of Slate mention on an audio bit somewhere that just letting them fail would essentially be telling Michigan and a couple of other of dependent, populous states to go pound sand. Maybe you do go for a solution that bails them out but encourages them to downsize by 40% (or whatever the number should ultimately be) over some extended period of time, but sending them straight into Chapter 7 (because Chapter 11 would apparently be unavailable) bombs those states into horse-and-buggy territory. I know that the Lions have much to answer for, and Hank lives there and all, but I'm not sure that we as a country are ready for Detroit's complete demolishment.

Re: Not cool
 

Except for he may not have existed - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122669909279629451.html

Re: Not cool
 

This seems like a shocking blow to many a Pensk post past.

Re: Not cool
 

Actually, not.

I always thought the married a 5 year old thing was a "wink wink" that his whole existence was a sham. He was a prophet afterall, and certainly, with that status, he could have scored someone with a more substantial potential for sexual relations, if not pro-creation (isnt that the point of marraige, and if so, I am fairly certain that 5 yos are not so proficient at pro-creating).

Thoughts?

eta: I dont think those were my posts, but rather, socks attributed, rightly and wrongly, to me. Also, notwithstanding an overlap on IP addys, Slave is not my sock, nor me his. nttawwt.

reta: on reflection, a shocking blow to some sock's posts, perhaps, yes.

Re: help! save me!
 

"Non-political" may be a bit narrow.

Re: help! save me!
 

And the argument that people will never buy a car made by a company emerging from some sort of quasi-11 where the govt acts as resurrecting financier is pure nonsense.

Re: Not cool
 

All it needs now is fewer adherents and a couple of Midwestern and Northeastern colleges where a few of the oldtimers bellyache about how P.E. and going to weekday services used the be required for undergraduates, and Islam will finally have achieved Total Theological Maturity.