Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

I don't think our dislike is hypocritical or hypersensitive. Unless you are a woman you don't understand the daily battle we wage in being accepted for who we are, NOT what we look like or what sort of recreation we can provide. The c-word implies that I am nothing better than a receptacle for sperm.

It's like walking past the construction site and being sexually harassed. Although I must say the guys on the Big Dig don't really do it anymore. It's the crowd at the train station that's really bad. The nice weather comes and I have to take the train one stop farther in order to not to be harassed on the way home,

Oh, oh Alabama
 

hmm, i can see someone now "but, officer, it really is a massager for my back, honest" ;)

are those vibrating harry potter brooms included in the ban?

one more reason to avoid the state of alabama i guess. at times i wonder if there is a contest between alabama and mississippi to see which state's legislature or voters can do the most idiotic things possible.

ms. naughty diplomat

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

No. But I do remember wanting to beat the crap out of everyone who said "conversate" when it was in common use several years ago.

p(Monie Love, how could you?)j

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

This makes me think of something that was the topic of a recent discussion. I don't know how it didn't make my radar before (probably because I've never heard occasion of it actually being used), but a woman can sue for defamation on the basis of a lack of "chastity", but a man can't. I assume from your comments that you think that is an appropriate double-standard?

Have you ever heard of someone actually suing for that reason?

PJ -- just to be clear, I'm not challenging your position on the subject, I'd just like to hear your opinion on it.

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

God no. That's stup.

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

Then my question would be: does being called a "dick" imply I am nothing better than a sperm provider?

And if it did mean this, why would this bother me, a man, less than it would bother you, a woman, being referred to as a sperm-receptacle? They're both equally asinine insults. I couldn't give two shits if someone tried to imply I was nothing more than a sperm-giver.

I guess I'm just wondering why you would give the word "cunt" so much power. It simply means that a person is really rotten. Richard Gere used it perfectly in An Officer and a Gentleman.

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

Oh, fuck. That's bound to start another battle with paigow. She's still not over your last one.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

PJ,

And dick is not similarly derogatory toward men because? Your saying that accepting male genitalia as a way to describe a person whos is a real asshole does not degrade males or contain negative implications about their genitals? Like dicks are not ugly enough the way it is... we need them to become a way of describing the worst in our society. As the owner of a dick, I find that hurtful. I'm not some kind of freak - I'm a man with feelings.

"Cunt" has nothing d=to do with a woman's sexuality at all. When I call a chick a cunt, I mean she's a rotten piece of shit - just as TM said - the female equivalent of an asshole.

Now re: "slut" - you're abolutely right. That's an unfair sexist term which I'd never be caught dead using. Men bitch and moan about never getting laid, then use stupid terms like whore and slut to demean women. Those dumbass men don't realize that in making women's sexuality and chasteness the measuring stick for insult, these dumb fucks decrease their own chances of getting laid. Women would fuck a lot more and these men would not be the frustrated fucks they are if they'd shut their mouths and not be so fucking afraid of women who are sexually aggressive.

S(Why men disparage sexually aggressive chicks is beyond me - it makes absolutely no sense - my guess is its fragile male ego shit)D

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

Sppoky,

1. That earlier "fight" (there really never was one) was me getting off my meds.

2. You can't goad anyone into getting into a fight with a post like yours.

3. I've never seen her shorten words, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

4. Shortening words in the text on a chat board is titally acceptable - my comments were directed exclusively at the shortening of words in actual conversation.

SD

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

:eyeroll: maybe its because you can find men named dick, but you can't find women named cunt.

thus if i call you dick sebby, i could be simply calling you the wrong name, but if you call me cunt, i'd be sure that you are insulting me.

ms. naughty diplomat

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

Sebby,

Your post just reminded me that I had a dream about you last night. You were my boss and you caught me surfing the internet. One of the open windows was on the Gap's webpage (as if!), and I pointed out that the Gap was using your signature to sell pants. Right there on the webpage in big bold pink letters it said, "Changing pants, one leg at a time."

There was more to the dream but that was, uh, the weirdest part. Vy do you sink zee letters vere pink?

edited to add: on the shortening words thing ... I had a roommate in college who called the library "the berry." What a left tail (there was an apparent glitch in the admissions process). I wanted to slap her, for that and so many reasons.

Quick Buffy comment
 

spoiler space.

Was anyone else watching last night surprisingly satisfied to see the Scoobies et al telling Buffy to stick it where the sun don't shine? I was SO pleased to see each of the leads get in at least one good kick to the slats. Particularly, I was glad to see someone acknowledge that Buffy has sort of become the "All Spike All The Time Show" by saying to Buffy the magic words "It's not about Spike, it's about you." I have renewed hope for the finale if JW is addressing head on how annoying and unsupportable his characters' personality tics and obsessions have gotten.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

No, I'm dead against allowing someone to sue over defamation for implying a lack of chastity--my whole point is that a woman being sexual should be viewed exactly as positively as it is for a man, so I won't support anything that implies that a double-standard is acceptable.

And Sebby, I'm with Anne Elk on the "c-word." Just like street harassment, it's often used as an implied sexual derogation and threat of violent action. The "d-word" simply doesn't have the same connotations and is generally used as a milder insult in milder situations. It's sexual, but just not used quite the same way.

p(suddenly thought of the implications if the boss walked in to notice a bunch of graphic sexual terms all over my computer screen)j

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

Seb,

2. It wasn't meant to goad. Just a warning. I find such fights tiresome, personally.

3. I have. Particularly convo.

4. a. Agreed. Typing's a pain in the ass.

b. Can't comment on whether used in conversations, but it
has been used on the board for I suspect, precisely the effect
you were complaining about.

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

Words have power. It's not so much the literal meaning of the words, but all the cultural baggage that goes along with it. The chicks here have a point that calling someone a cunt is different from calling someone a dick, even though they are both slang words for gender specific and sexually related body parts.

Look at it this way -- the n-word is a disparaging word used to describe black people, and cracker is a disparaging word used to describe white people. Both are slurs directed towards skin color. Would you agree that I am probably less likely to be bothered by being called a cracker than TM would be bothered by being called the n-word?

(edited to add the "probably" part)

Quick Buffy comment
 

Yes, her speeches had gotten over the top, she messed up when she took the SITs into the place with the crazy dude, no surprise they didn't want to go back and die again. And lord knows if she says Spike is good because he has a sooooul one more time. Gonna kick my tv set.

I haven't found the show as compelling as I used to, I frequently find myself working on my computer or reading a book instead of paying attention.

It has gotten so focused on Buffy angst and Spike whatever that it hasn't been the ensemble show that made it strong in the first place. Hopefully they can clean it up so it has a satisfactory ending. We'll see.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

I agree with the outraged, frankly. It is insulting to those around you when you dress with a level of formality lower than that which you know is expected. Clothing is never just about comfort (if it were it would be optional in all essentials), it is about communicating attitudes of respect and/or conformity to others (and establishing status). I understand why this particular guy did it from a semiotic p.o.v., but, as he helpfully pointed out, he was elected to change old standards through his policies, not his clothing. (Besides, he could have had precisely the same "shocking" effect, without giving cause for insult, by wearing a blue or olive suit or wearing a colored shirt (though departing from white collar is more iffy).)

The implication that sartorial (or social) conservatism is at odds with a modern, westernized economy was strange.

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

I know a few GIRLS who do this. They are younger than most of us though (mostly 22-25), which means I am inherently attracted to them.

My guy friends will sometimes refer to a another guy as a "vag" b/c he's going to Home Depot with the wife instead of playing poker with the boys.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

This argument:
doesn't mesh with this one:

"Dick" is just as gender specific as "cunt." And calling someone a "cunt" isn't necessarily a comment about said woman's sexual nature. If I don't know a thing about your sexual history, I can call you a cunt based on how you've interacted with me. It's about attitude. "Slut" demeans a woman based on her sexual experience (perceived or real).

"Dick" is the same as "cunt" as far as the nature of the insult is concerned. "Cunt" may be more extreme or harsh, but you can't say you can't compare the two because one is a more accepted insult.

TM

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

I agree with you regarding how words can have power and how two people can view it differently. My question in this case is why view it differently? Why make the meaning of the word worse than it is intended to be?

In your n-word example, I think the difference is that when the n-word is used, both the user and the recipient know what is being communicated. It is clear. When a white calls a black the n-word, blacks and whites do not assign different meanings to it.

But, if I were to refer to a woman as a cunt, it would mean that she is a really rotten, awful person. NOT that she is simply a sperm-receptacle. Men and women assign different meanings to the word. I was just wondering why.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

I was just thinking about Atticus's post, which started this whole discussion by saying "putting aside the c-word."

Then I remembered, didn't somebody once give Atticus a nasty nickname? And did that happen because Atticus was thought to be a woman?

Irony, or coincidence?

r(can't bring myself to write it this morning, just plain hate it, won't try to explain why)p

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

You can't be serious.

TM

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

i wasn't

although i do wonder why any guy would voluntarily use the name dick

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

PJ,

I'm going way out on a limb here... I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'll throw it out there.

You say cunt implies sexual derogation and violence while dick does not? I don't see any violence in cunt at all. Derogation... absolutely, but no more than the derogation in dick. Someone else posted earlier that cunt implied "sperm receptacle" - which, literally, it partially does (that is one of the functions of that particular organ). I sometimes get the feeling that the right to insult is based on power, so is it possible maybe, that some women don't like the connotation of "sperm receptacle" in cunt because it reinforces the fact that women are biologically more passive than males in the sexual act? This is all a bit beyond me, but I seem to notice in society in general that its ok to insult whoever's "doing the fucking" while its tabboo to make fun of whoever's "getting fucked" (that is not sexist in any sense - there's just no way to massage that point in the time I have). I sometimes think that the "violence" you see in cunt is actually its reinforcing a primordial "fucker/fuckee" power dynamic.

I don't think that power dynamic exists any more or should exist - fot that reason, women complaining about cunt is a double standard.

S(Ain't no anthropologists - just throwing out a theory)D

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

And yet, it is aceptable for black people to use the n-word amongst themselves. At least they do up here in the northeast, but if I use it (as a white woman) it becomes a slur.

Can't comment on cracker, never heard that one before.

I think "Dick" is less powerful than cunt or twat or vag etc. because it can be used as a first name (personally, I will never name any of my male children Richard).

There still exists the double-standard. A man with many sexual partners is studly, a woman with many sexual partners is a slut.

Based on our cultural background we all have a different opionion on what we interpret as insulting. That's probably why there are so many cuss words.

If you call me the c-word again, I'll throw my shoes at you!

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

I'm not sure they do. If I call someone a cunt, it means she is really pissing me off - it doesn't have anything to do with receiving sperm. Just if I call someone a dick, it means they're pissing me off - nothing to do with being a sperm-shooter.

I think one of the arguments is that when you dehumanize someone by reducing them to a body part, it is a grave insult. When you dehumanize them by reducing them to a sexual body part, it is an even worse insult. When you dehumanize them by reducing them to a (gasp) female sexual body part, it is the absolute worst (because in the traditional heirarchy of things, women are below men). So by calling someone a sperm-receiver, you don't have sperm-receiving on your mind, they are just a horrible person and you are searching for the gravest insult you can find (based on what society says is good and bad)

I'm feeling like I just had a Just for Fun moment (explaining something obvious like it was something profound), so please forgive me.

(And don't come home from drinkin' with sperm-receivin' on your mind)

(And go Ottawa. )

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

Good point. I would concede that "cunt" is a charged word because someone who uses it most likely is expressing their disgust with (i) the woman in front of him and (ii) women in general. So, if you compare "dick" and "cunt" in that context, the actual meanings of the words are similar, but the intention behind the usage differs drastically.

But it is NOT used (as far as I've seen) as a comment on a woman's sexual proclivities. That's where I disagree with PJ.

TM

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

It shouldn't, but it does.

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

Sure they do. Yes, they are both insults technically referring to genitalia. No, they are not used remotely in the same way. Calling a guy a dick doesn't imply any judgement in particular about his sexuality--as say, "pencil dick" would. I have never, ever heard the word "cunt" used in a way that did not imply something negative about a woman sexually--usually, that she had stepped out her place and was acting like a guy--and with respect to women, sexual terms implying insult or potential harm are often used to put her back there.

It's like the n-word/cracker distinction Not Bob made--refer to an analogous thing, but has completely different history, meaning and implications.

p(just read that the Joe Millionaire reject posing for Playboy said she refused to do full-frontal nudity because she was a women's studies' major--so glad she got the point of her classes)j

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

Time was, blacks and whites had different views of what the N-word meant, too. The fact that a speaker considers it a harmless slang term indicating someone is black doesn't make it less harmful to the person hearing it as a reminder and assertion of generations of domination and oppression.

And, as this discussion has made clear, the gentlemen of the board are well aware that women hear "cunt" as having a rather unique power to convey the objectification and non-personhood of women. So you can't claim as a user of the term that you don't know what is being communicated. Insistence that it only means "rotten, awful person" because you say so just implies that female thoughts or feelings on the matter have no value, further emphasizing the oppressive denial of personhood implied by the word.

BR(don't get particularly worked up about "cunt" myself, but I understand why the historical baggage makes it quite different from "dick," or even "prick," which I consider roughly equivalent to "twat"; I agree with Lester that "slut" should be forcibly reappropriated as a compliment, rather as "bitch" has among some female groups)C

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

Do like Seinfeld and end with the swirl.

Anyone?
 

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines douche bag (ca. 1963) as an unattractive or offensive person. My question is, have you ever known a male to be called a douche bag?

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

Sadly, I do think that power dynamic does still exist. Does anyone else remember that famous college lecture where the speaker asked the women what they were afraid of men for, and vice-versa? The women said they were afraid of getting beaten and raped by men. The men said they were afraid that women would laugh at them. I just think the context and implications of sexualized insults remains different.

p(not to get too depressing here--as far as I'm concerned, feminism's all about the joy of equally getting one's freak on)j

Fashion Causes Political Crisis in S.Korea
 

Interesting historical note on the word "faggot." Historically, is was a bundle of sticks, generally used as kindling. In the early part of the 20th century, it was slang for a cigarette in the UK (also elsewhere, but primarily in the UK). It began to be used to refer to homosexuals in Nazi Germany, once homosexuals were starting to be shipped off to the death camps. Its use came about because the unfortunates had a tendency to go up in flames like a .... faggot.

Since running across this little etymological lesson, I have been more inclined to flinch when I hear the word being used. But then, we all know how overly PC I am.

Anyone?
 

I've heard it used against both men and women, and more frequently against men. When you think about the mechanics of it, it makes sense, no?

And as for Webster's, consider these definitions:

Cunt (there, I wrote it): 1. the female pudenda; also: coitus with a women - usu. considereed obscene. 2. WOMAN: usu. used disparagingly; usu. considered obscene.

Dick: 1. chiefly Brit: FELLOW, CHAP 2: PENIS - usu. considered vulgar. 3. DETECTIVE


These differences are interesting, they suggest that dick referred to a man before it referred to his little man, while cunt referred to a woman's genitals before it was used to refer to a woman. This at least partly explains the difference in how demeaning the term is considered to be.

Also note that dick is not considered obscene, merely vulgar, which appears to be the prevailing view of the posters.

Anyone?
 

No, but once when I was watching a douche commercial, and my dad was in the room, and we were silently looking at the tv, both thinking why the hell do they have douche commercials, I said to him, "Dad, do you ever get that not so fresh feeling?"

But I don't think that is the same thing.

Ladies, Do Not Do This
 

Mrs. Wonk thinks its just "fabu."

I think I'm going to start fooling around behind her back.

Anyone?
 

No, and I haven't used that term in years. If I recall correctly putz was the male equivalent. At camp I once knew a kid with the last name Putz. I felt sorry for him, he already had so many strikes against him and was saddled with a lat name like that. Luckily his first name was not Dick.

Towards gender-neutral cuss words
 

I don't get where use of cunt went off the rails. Back in Chaucer's time, it was acceptable slang, no? (which I learned when some dork in my English class asked the prof how you pronounce "queinte" and why did that guy grab the Miller's wife there).

primordial power dynamic
 

The c-word is offensive because it defines a woman solely as a receptacle for ejaculate. The proper parallel to "dick" would be calling a woman a clit, but that's not offensive enough because it does not convey the proper level of powerlessness.

We drew this distinction in our discussions about rape. The only way a man can understand the true power dynamic of nonconsensual sex is male-on-male rape. The physiology of sex means that, while in our "modern" world women have become more sexually aggressive and true partners in a sexual relationship, the act of intercourse is a power dynamic in which the man is powerful and the woman is powerless.

The c-word depends on this shading for its power.