Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Not so sure. If you voted for Johnson, you're looking for absolutely any reason not to vote for Hillary.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I acknowledged it was a number of things. My objection was to the early emphasis on racism and xenophobia being the cause. There was an attempt, and I think there remains an effort among many, to delegitimize the election by focusing on racism and xenophobia as the main reasons Trump won. There are numerous reasons Trump won, and I've seen nobody make a credible case any one was significantly greater than the other.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

This is true. Nobody shifted exclusively because they were called racists or sexists. But there is a hysterical left out there right now, making enormous asses of themselves, by labelling anything and everything that disagrees with them racist or a sexist. That sort of childish idiocy - identical in its infantile nature to right wingers calling Obama a socialist for eight years, and birtherism - does the Democratic Party no favors.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Or you're looking to send a message.

I didn't expect the result we got. But to the extent that, regardless of who won, the third party vote would have emerged as a serious spoiler, compelling a sclerotic two party system to reckon with it, I'm encouraged.

Competition is a good thing. That a large part of this country rejected the squalid offerings foist on it by a pair of tired parties is democracy working as it should. If people don't like the fact that a lunatic won, the parties now understand: Run better candidates next time.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Message you wanted to send: I want a third choice

Message you sent: If no one will cater to my entitled ass I'd just as soon let the country go to hell

And yes, I'll happily concede that both statements above are true.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Trump is racist and sexist.

This is a problem. And it is true.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

It might be because of all the things Trump said, some of which he has now done.

It also might be because some of those things will do active harm to his voters, who nonetheless like those things because they punch foreigners, Muslims and people of color.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

It's not. That you've, apparently intentionally as we've had this dicussion ad nauseum, kept yourself ignorant on issues of race and gender does not make very real issues of race and gender just like birtherism.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

There's little either party could offer anyone fitting into the social liberal/fiscal conservative bucket (and we're most of the country). Who the hell's going to meet at least 85% of these criteria:

Pro-choice
Pro gay marriage
Pro LGBT rights
Reasonable environmental regulation
Repeal of carried interest loophole
Reasonable deregulation of finance
Lower corporate tax rate
Encourage repatriation of offshore corporate money by offering one time tax discount or holiday
Decrease defense spending by 1/3-1/2
Non-interventionist foreign policy
Immigration reform w/emphasis on bringing in skilled, innovative human capital
Massive entitlement and program reform
Repeal of McCarran Ferguson Act to allow cross-border insurance competition
Encouragement of renewable energy and nuclear power
Ban on all surveillance of US Citizens w/o warrant
Disbanding of FISA courts
Net neutrality
Legalization of reasonably safe recreational drugs
Repeal of all mandatory minimums
Ban on private prison management of federal correctional facilities
Repeal of federal death penalty
Cap on federal student lending guarantees at $25k
Repeal of 2005 bankruptcy reform act
Cap top fed individual tax rate at 25%
Adjust progressive tax brackets by location cost of living (so coastal residents doesn't bear unfair share relative to their other expenses)
Repeal Medicare Part D
Allow govt price negotiation with big pharma
Cap gains rate to 10%
Repeal of alternative minimum tax
Make student loans taken out after 2005 dischargeable in bkcy up to 50%

I'm going to be voting third party for the rest of my life.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

When you assert everything is about race or sex, as the subjects of what I wrote do, you are being infantile.

Not everything must be seen primarily through those two prisms.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

This is exactly what I was talking about. Absolutely nobody does this. Your stupid little quotation is a mechanism idiots deploy when they want an excuse for voting for someone for whatever reason who they also know is a racist or sexist.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Agreed. But he's not everyone who disagrees with the people who throw those charges around so cavalierly. Thank god.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Actually, a ton of people do this. They use those charges as cudgels the moment they see an opening to do so.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Have you considered, "I want better options"? That was what I was thinking. It's what I'm still thinking. And it's the message I sent.

The parties will know in 2020, when people like me state our refusal to pick from shitty choices once more, we mean it. That's progress. That's how you either improve the system, or take it down.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I have much more respect for people with strong views that push them to straddle the parties than for the David Borders who keep charting to the middle. The middle is always shifting, so it takes a true lack of principle to stay there.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I started to go line by line, but the Dems, especially of the Hillary variety, are way better on a bunch of those (some, like repatriation, are objectively bad policy too).

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Most people would not know about this so-called hysterical left if it weren't for people -- like you, actually -- complaining about them.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I'm in good company. You can find endless articles on the emergence of victim culture in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc.

It's the whole crux of the political correctness debate that's been going on for decades.

Shaming, checking one's privilege, heteronormative, etc... this is the stuff of common, everyday commentary and articles one finds in almost any media outlet. These aren't my words, or my fixation. They're part of an emerging culture that is in some ways very good, but can also be exceedingly self-righteous.

But yes, I'm uniquely sensitive to this stuff. I'm of the opinion anyone lecturing to another about anything - anything - deserves the best poor man's Hitchens the listener can muster in reply.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You're hardly uniquely sensitive to this stuff -- as you say, you can find fellow souls complaining about it in The Atlantic, New Yorker, Time, Daily Beast, National Review, Slate, etc., and that was exactly my point. Mainstream media, conservative and lefty alike, is full of people tirelessly saving us from a few people on the fringe who can't themselves get a platform to reach much of anyone and who would be basically ignored if it weren't so important to people like you to be irritated by them.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I wasn't writing about media complaining about it (save NR, which clearly does so). Most magazines are just writing about it neutrally, or in the case of Slate, often the NY Times, or Huffington Post, preaching about it.

With the election of Ole Orangehead, we've got a perfect storm of grievance culture slamming into regressive maleness. It wastes fuckloads of ink.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Data point?

If you think this is the case, run for office with this approach and see how you do.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

The message you sent was that you're too damn special to end up with a candidate who only agreed with you on most stuff so fuck the country.

I know you thought you were just asking for a pony.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I assume you did notice that his entire list goes on and on and on but doesn't include anything on racial discrimination. It's nice being white.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Well, I guess we found an issue where you have strong views: anti-anti-racism.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You're trying to shame me there, and appropriate my self-expression.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I rest my case.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

As only an occasional participant, let me summarize my views on the the Politics Board, 2017, thus far.

Sebby's third party posture is both incorrect and responsible for much of the problems the nation now faces. I find it difficult to find anything he says objectively correct, which makes it very hard to say....

Sebby is correct about the future of employment, or, rather, the future of unemployment, given the rapid advances in intellectual property, and robotics.

The Board is all over the lot on the issue of the consequences of asserting charges of racism at Republicans in general. My view is that Trump is either a racist or is using racist code in such a cynical manner, so often, that it is unreasonable not to acknowledge this. If "the other" are responsible for my miserable life, be they Mexicans, Muslims, or anybody else,then I'll vote for the blowhard that will keep them out or kill them. He is a brilliant at this. But it speaks for itself. Don't rise to the bait unless it is absolutely necessary.

The Republicans officeholders who are following him would do and say anything...anything... to remain in power. This includes reversing their eternal love of free trade and open borders that keeps labor costs down. Mitch McConnell would eat a gallon of Trump's fresh rat turds every morning to remain the majority leader.

The people who voted for Trump, against their own best interests (said the elitist), voted with their guts, not their heads. Two working people in a household with blue collar jobs, no savings, no raise in eight to ten years, no better prospects, and no way to pay for their children's education, will vote for a demagogue. They did, in force.

The Democratic Party bench of up and comers is embarrassingly thin.

The Democrats picked the wrong issues. The people in flyover country really don't give a damn about transgender rights. They don't care about most civil rights at all. They care about the unpaid bills. To be clear: I am not advocating a retreat on civil rights. But to win the middle of the country one must campaign on things the middle of the country cares about. Trump built fantasy factories powered by American coal miners who whistle while they work, and he sold it.

Trumps serial lies are the only way to defeat him. Instead of Low Energy Jeb, the Democrats need to be talking about The Lying So-Called President. They need to be taking out billboards NOW with a Trump quote and the word LIAR in letters the size of his name on the hotels he owns. I can picture one in Bowling Green. I can picture one in Kentucky Coal Country when no mines open. I can picture one in every town, when Obamacare is repealed and millions of people loose their insurance. I can picture one everywhere when unemployment goes up, as I believe (see paragraph three above) is inevitable.

I am asking people with common sense to do something I haven't really done in earnest since the Vietnam War. Don't just bitch. Join the resistance.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I see you're still engaging, which is weird because, from what I can tell by skimming, Sebastian's posts mainly consist of 1) attempts to take the art of internal inconsistency to absurdist extremes, 2) irrationally abusive invectives against those who agree with criticisms of him, and 3) a disturbingly increasing use of the words "echo chamber." It's like all you have to do is say the words "echo chamber" and you are suddenly above the fray, the one omniscient and magically impartial person in a room full of brainwashed sheep. It's a late Daily Dose today, so I have a nice long Jimmy Smith Hammond B-3 funk tune for you. "Root Down." For the Beastie Boys fans in the house:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP4LGEAfUEY

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Years ago, my mother scandalized me with the following comment: "I should have kicked him in the balls when I had the chance."

It wasn't the comment itself that shocked me, it was that she was referring to Mitch McConnell. At some point in the early 1960s they went on a date.

Since finding out about it, I also often wish she'd kicked him in the balls when she'd had the chance. And today. I wish she'd caused permanent damage.

Though to be fair, men have been telling women to shut up for millennia. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that they actually voted on it.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

McConnell has balls?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Just curious. You put a lot of effort in to a very long list. Why do you think you put civil rights for gay folks right up top but didn't think about civil rights for people of color?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Because like Michael Keaton (see Maher clip above), I'm in the Klan.

Seriously? Has anyone been attempting to deny people of color the right to marry? Has anyone removed them from the protected classes in discrimination suits? LGBT people do not have full rights yet, and their right to marry will be under attack.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I do not believe you. People do not "assert everything is about race or sex." No one I have ever met does anything like this. Sometimes people talk about race or sex and the impact they have on all sorts of shit. Sometimes people accuse others of being influenced by it. But no one ever fucking says everything is about race or sex. That's just what your delicate little ears hear.

One cannot bring either issue up without people (read: white people) throwing their hands up and turning their brains completely off after hearing it. You're the perfect example.* When I brought up the history of how race was a major factor in how our justice system has been molded to fuck black people, you fought and fought and fought and tried to focus on all the other things that could have contributed. When it comes to racism and sexism, all of a sudden normal people can't take a step back and think rationally. Classism? "Sure. Let's think about it as a factor in what happened." Geopolitics? "Yes. It contributed in the following ways." Race? "Come on! Not everything is all about race!"

Of course our justice system isn't entirely about race. But once one has drawn the conclusion that a significant reason of why it's set up the way it is is related to race, can that be part of the overall conversation without white people shutting the fuck down?

Apply that to Trump's rise. If you were able to actually listen to the people you are accusing of "asserting everything is about race or sex," you would understand that both of those things played a role in this (and, frankly, every) election without accusations of those issues swallowing every other issue. You won't, of course. You will switch your mind off and continue being Sebby.

TM

*Yes, I already regret using you as an example because you're automatically going to hear "You're a racist."**

**Which makes this an even better example, doesn't it?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Do you think racial and religious minorities have full, equal rights today?

Look, just so there is no doubt, I'm going to attack you personally for being the jackass who voted for Johnson in a swing state for a long time to come. You own that.

However, I'm not suggesting you have any personal racial animus, are a closet Klan member, or anything else like that. I do think you have de-prioritized a fight that is very real for many people every single day, and your statement confirms it. Being able to buy insurance across state lines has become a more important issue to you than whether or not the average African American casting a ballot in North Carolina have to wait longer and travel farther than the average white.

The statement you made above frightens me. Race is still an issue in voting, hiring, housing, and many, many other aspects of our life.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Much of this debate about political correctness is complete and total bullshit. What people like you have done is conflate a demand for respect with college campus discussions about safe spaces and trigger warnings. It's just a way to trivialize actual issues raised by people who do not hold power and who are trying to get some. You say, "these people are way too sensitive," because you take the most ridiculous examples and hold them up as what political correctness means when the overwhelming share of what is at issue actually revolves around a demand for the same level of respect white men show one another and expect from everyone else. The term has become a catch-all for protecting feelings over speaking truth. And it's garbage. It's now a weapon that Republicans and Trump get to use to foment support or backlash on any topic at all.

Political correctness is the demand by those who are not white men to be treated the way white men expect to be treated. That's it. If that's too fucking difficult for anyone to handle, then they can fuck off.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Not getting shot by police seems like one of the aspects that is probably important to some.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Yep it's all about race. Jackass.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

It is just overwhelmingly stupid that you characterize these issues as "Democrats picking the wrong issues." If what you mean by "picking these issues" is Democrats fighting Republicans who are constantly crafting actual laws shitting on people, then yeah. I suppose you're right. But what you said above is ridiculous. I suppose we should give Republicans credit for creating an atmosphere in which those who fight the active removal of rights for the vulnerable among us are considered to be "choosing the wrong issues," but among those of us who know better, we can surely do a little better.

If you had said, "Hillary did a terrible job expressing her plan to create opportunities for those in jobs that will soon be obsolete while Trump built fantasy factories, etc." I'd be with you. But this idea that you're perpetuating that Hillary and the Democrats fought Trump's fantasies by raising issues of transgender rights, makes you as programmed as any Trump numbskull.

This I agree with.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Race is part of almost every political issue.

The "shut down" you see, which is very real, occurs when race moves to the forefront of causes. People see a complex issue, like Trump's win, and think of myriad reasons for it, all of similar gravity. I don't think any sane white person would debate racism and sexism were part of his success. Its when people forget race and sex are part of a broader whole in terms of that explanation that things go sideways.

Perhaps it's the media's fault. After Trump's win, the media created a quick and dirty sound bite explanation: Bihots and sexists awarded him the office. Naturally, we all cited articles here, from that media, many of which highlighted that gross oversimplification.

In turn, I cited opposing sources highlighting joblessness as s significant part of Trump's appeal. Being a board full of lawyers, people fought that, and I fought back. In the end, the truth was, as you note, and I've acknowledged, Trump was elected for a variety of reasons, which include racism and joblessness.

Re my ability to discuss race, I've told a number of dumb white fucks running their mouth off about the need to be "tough on crime" (I see lots of flyover types) that they don't know wtf they're talking about. Currently, I direct them to "13th," and remind them I did criminal defense, and our system is racist. Full stop. This does not make me popular with "conservatives." Which pleases me considerably. (I'm much more direct in person when I think someone's wrong.)

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

GGG ducked that one because I cited justice reform as a significant demand for a candidate.

I forgot "demilitarization of police." Add that to my list.