Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

No. I disagree. The media did not flood the airwaves with stories suggesting that race was why Trump won. What you saw was the reaction (and related stories) of disbelief over how a racist, sexist asshole could win. The fact that people lamented the fact that Trump garnered so much support partly because of his racism and sexism and partly in spite of it is a huge story. I suppose one could combine all of that with actual racist voter ID laws and actual racist voter suppression in the form of limiting access to voting booths in black neighborhoods and shutting down early voting options to conclude that race sure as hell played a huge role in this very close election.

But the discussion of Comey's interference and Russia's involvement have been way bigger stories than what I listed above. And whenever we talk about why Trump won, you seem laser-focused on Trump's pretend jobs program. So who exactly are all these people you keep running into who "assert everything is about race or sex?"

And given the amount of attention given to all of these things, I'm struggling to find examples of people who asserted it was all about race or sex." Like I said, after 8 years of Obama, it was shocking to many people that so many white people would overwhelmingly choose such a blatant racist, sexist asshole. But that's hardly the same as an assertion that his election was all about racism and sexism.

Great!

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

The thing that especially galls me about the current vogue for throwing out "political correctness" is that its never accompanied by an actual willingness to do so.

I mean, we're all old enough to remember when this debate was about whether white people can use the n word (or men the c word, or various ethnic slurs). If you're so anti-PC, why aren't you using those words freely?

Right, because you've figured out that those things are offensive, inappropriate, or get you a punch to the face and you can deal with that, but god forbid anyone ask you think go any farther.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

[QUOTE=ThurgreedMarshall;505665]It is just overwhelmingly stupid that you characterize these issues as "Democrats picking the wrong issues." If what you mean by "picking these issues" is Democrats fighting Republicans who are constantly crafting actual laws shitting on people, then yeah. I suppose you're right. But what you said above is ridiculous. I suppose we should give Republicans credit for creating an atmosphere in which those who fight the active removal of rights for the vulnerable among us are considered to be "choosing the wrong issues," but among those of us who know better, we can surely do a little better.

If you had said, "Hillary did a terrible job expressing her plan to create opportunities for those in jobs that will soon be obsolete while Trump built fantasy factories, etc." I'd be with you. But this idea that you're perpetuating that Hillary and the Democrats fought Trump's fantasies by raising issues of transgender rights, makes you as programmed as any Trump numbskull.


Let me put it another way. There is a difference between governing and campaigning. Certainly the Democrats should oppose regressive policies, voter suppression being a perfect example. But the Democrats didn't campaign...didn't "pivot"..., if you will, to something like "The Warner Franken Manchin Massive Infrastructure Employment Bill." They never said to the blue collar base that they had a plan for them. They didn't campaign on building the Biden Memorial Bullet Train, or similar high end updated WPA projects across the country. Schumer should be talking about "The Bridge and Tunnel Act of 2017" force the Republicans to do what they said...build infrastructure. He should be talking about massive Space Exploration projects, and point out that we are relying on Putin's rockets to get into space.

Kill the retrogressive social policies in Committee. Run on clean water for Detroit. Run on big projects. Run on big ideas with tangible results. Say what you will about the pipelines, and their merit, but flyover country bought them, lock stock and barrel.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I disagree. I just think they did a terrible job of it and let themselves get defined by Republicans and Trump. But I guess that doesn't really matter.

No arguments here.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Progressive policies are fine if they are framed correctly. I'd frame it as two words:

Fair
Equal

No one can be against those two concepts.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Why do you think justice reform is all about race?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

One thing Hill missed completely was the need for a campaign focused on shallow unachievable principles rather than detailed ways of improving peoples lives. Because she had like 20 speeches and 30 position papers about how to achieve as much of the above as possible.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Right. I am advocating shouting those two words over and over again.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

There are a lot of people who are against those two concepts, including a great many people who are more comfortable with traditional social hierarchies and are happy that it feels like Trump is restoring them.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

If that's what I had said, this would be a question worth answering.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

She wasn't going to improve the lives of any trump voters. They knew that.

And neither is he.

Reread the part of ferret's post where he agrees with me about future unemployment. The outlook is beyond bleak. Hillary offered nothing more than the status quo. Trump offered lies. Either way, the Trump voters were and are fucked.

"Improving peoples lives… " How naïve are you? The best any politician will be able to do for most of the people becoming unemployed is provide a guaranteed income. You think any candidate is going to be able to do that within the next decade?

There is no political fix. Drive that into your skull and we can have a sensible conversation. Persist with delusions like Hillary would have somehow "improved" the terminal situations of the current and future unemployed in an aggressively automating age, and all I can do is slap my forehead reading your bullshit.

Now tell me a bedtime story about re-training, education, and how this is just like the industrial revolution. Jesus Fucking Christ...

Forget about politicians. Their toolbox is effectively exhausted.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I would, but I think you've done it enough to have us all covered.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

It's a rare and glorious thing to get anybody here to admit anything contrary to the consensus. I'll happily wallow in the tiniest victory.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

He's already gotten a tattoo containing ferret's text.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Best suggestion for a tattoo for the Trump years I've seen: "Marbury v. Madison, Motherfuckers."

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

This is completely false. If you had paid even the slightest bit of attention to our back-and-forth on this very issue, I conceded the fact that jobs are quickly becoming obsolete all over the place.* Your only responses have been to say (i) actual policy proposals by Hillary and Democrats that have been obstructed that would grant some relief even in the face of an inevitable march to obsolescence (as opposed to the fantasy proposed by Trump) are meaningless because it's only a matter of time and (ii) actual policy doesn't win elections.

And apparently, on your pat-yourself-on-the-back tour, you have grown unaware of the fact that you are just repeating yourself on this issue ad nauseum.

TM

*I hope you realize that this reality is not something you discovered or even brought to our attention on this board.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Just to expand, assuming this is a place where we're not just screaming "Jobs!" and calling it done, but where people actually care about policy (Sebby, you can stop reading), there are actually a wide range of job-focused policy initiatives that have been high priorities on the Democratic side:

(1) higher minimum wages - something the Rs are dead set against that are a fundamental driver of quality of life for many working class Americans;

(2) ACA has turned into a phenomenal jobs program and fees one of the most significant growth industries we have now, and does it across the country; Again, the Rs are dead set against it;

(3) funding for "spark" programs - key initiatives at universities or industry research centers - has always been a democratic initiatives; this is another one where Ds push, Rs obstruct;

(4) Clean energy initiatives, including spark programs; Rs want oil based industry, and would argue that's the jobs expander;

(5) ongoing support for union rights under direct attack from Republicans, especially in places like Wisconsin;

(6) infrastructure programs; this is something traditionally opposed by Rs that Trump is actually pushing, but Ds have pushed for all along;

(7) trade deals that have included provisions requiring union protection and prohibitions on slave and child labor; this is a really key item that you only see under Dem Presidents.

Of course, we could also just look at how jobs have fared under the last Dem and last R presidents.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Something like this??? http://fuelfix.com/blog/2017/02/08/j...y-on-the-rise/

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Actual policy save guaranteed income will not work. (Well, war would as well, but that's a total reset situation.)

You're all navel gazing.

And perhaps not you, but a lot of this board (notably Adder) has bitterly refuted the suggestion that tech is destroying jobs and not going to bring anywhere near as many new ones in its wake. I've repeated that as nauseum for years because there remain a number of people here who still believe the "Buggywhip Paradigm" from Econ 101.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Most of this will just accelerate automation.

This is such tired iron, I don't even know where to start. I love infrastructure, but even that is more a feel good/necessity program than actual serious employment fix.

Guaranteed income. Get ready to hear me repeat the shit out of that. Capitalism has hit a rut. And no -- we can't grow our way out of it either. That's the cause of the environmental crises!

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Something like 100x that.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Exactly. Pretty good for a state that has put very little effort in to it. Mass is up to 100K jobs in the sector and we're just getting started: http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/ne...t-time-in.html

There are tech sectors that don't just automate but create new jobs - back when there was a ton of activity digging cables was an example, and solar is another one because of the need for manufacture, installation and upkeep of devices. Solar is probably a more labor-intensive industry than most other energy production methods, so as you see a transition from coal and oil to solar you may well see a net increase in jobs, though they'll be spread out differently.

Also, a real odd counter on employment in some of the red states: we are moving in agriculture toward more labor intensive ag instead of fully automated ag. I was getting a run down on this from a red-state Dem. Senator who also runs an organic farm. He employs significantly more people than his non-organic neighbor. He thinks this will be important to rural employment. (He also noted there will be areas, not including his state, where the pot industry may lead to intensive cultivation rural jobs that are now outsourced to Mexico).

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

"Yes we can"
"Hope and change"
"Make America Great Again"

???

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

She was, but not as much as Trump falsely promised. YOU know that.

And again, you're literally saying a thing that people have been saying about technology for millenia. Even specifically as to robotics, you're saying what people have been saying for half a century.

Which isn't to say that automation isn't going to continue to cause big changes. It is, but it's just not going to be the hellscape you're envisioning (by changing one thing while holding everythign else constant).

They sure as shit aren't going to be able to as long as stupid people keep equating trying to make incremental improvements with actively doing harm to working people.

This is just like the industrial revolution, you fricking dolt.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

No, you moron, I've disputed that tech is going to leave us with masses of people that won't be able to find work. You do see how that's different, right?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You realize that you're going to have to vote for the candidates of the left to get this, right?

ETA: Also, that this is completely incompatable with a top marginal tax rate of 25%?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Guaranteed income, free college, free medical. The person who says that WILL win next time.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Hill's was "Better Together"

point made.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Bullshit. You've repeatedly offered the Econ 101 argument, "Tech and automation will create more jobs over time, just like all new technologies of the past."

And you had to be dragged to the proposition you offered above, after arguing "Everything is great! Unemployment is low and it's all going to work out just as it always does!" for years.

You're revising your position now, for obvious reasons.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Yes.

Scrap all the agencies and people who administer programs (the bureaucratic middlemen) and just give money - and nothing else - to people directly and a shift to guaranteed income pays for itself.

Cost of middleman govt administrator (salary + benefits) is way greater than cost of just giving the person a decent guaranteed income.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

She was not. That's ludicrous.

Tech and automation and the demographics of today render your historical comparisons meaningless. It is different this time. Compare the numbers adversely impacted by the industrial revolution, and the labor removing capacity of the tech of that day to the capacity of today's tech. Apples and watermelons. Giant, 600 lb watermelons.

Are you even capable of creative thinking?

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You know anyone at a fund covering energy? Sing him the song of solar. Ask him how that sector's treated him... how many jobs he thinks that'll create, and how much of the grid it can power at full capacity.

Nuclear. That's the clean energy we need to embrace.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

This is why it's pointless discussing anything with you. I imagine at every leap in technology throughout history you would have held the same position. You can run screaming like some dim-witted chicken little if you want. The rest of us will try to evolve and create as many jobs in new industries as possible.

TM

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You also know you've stated the Econ 101 argument wrong, right?

I've repeatedly pointed out how there's still slack in labor markets but things have returned to historical norms and thus far appear heading back toward the levels of the recent past.

Meanwhile, you think a couple of million people out of the labor force is the be all and end all of all politics.

Uh huh.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You know this is not true, right? Like, you've looked at some numbers??

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You could not be a better example of motivated reasoning.

That's what they said every other time.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

Man, is there anything you're not wrong about? Solar has already won. It's only a matter of time.

Now I get it. Like Trump, your view of the world is based on "facts" that are a decade out of date.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You're missing the point. The aim right now is to totally eliminate labor costs. Robert Reich calls it the "Vicious Cycle."

There. Is. No. One. Trying. To. As. You. Say, "create as many new jobs in as many new industries as possible."

The aim in new industries is to create as much profit as possible by utilizing the cost savings provided by tech. The aim in old industries is to mine out profits by replacing labor with tech.

Labor is a cost to businesses. From a corporate profit perspective, we have stumbled into the Holy Grail. The current tech and automation removes the biggest cost in the way of profits to management and shareholders. Unlike prior labor eliminating advancements, this one rids the balance sheet of white collar management and administrative position costs. It also eliminates professional services costs.

Your statement above aligns you with Trump -- trying to recapture that which no one in corporate America desires.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

I've repeated what you've stated.

Yes. It's all normal. Hence, we just elected Trump.

Do we need to have the discussion about the quality of the jobs created right now, wage stagnation, etc. again?

No. I think unemployment is a completely useless metric. Completely and utterly fucking useless. Just like GDP (particularly as recently revised). I think the quality of the jobs being created versus those lost, wage stagnation, and automation are the measures worth examining. And I've a lot of company there. It's only dinosaurs who are even still paying attention to U3 unemployment.

Re: I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.
 

You need to retire these words, set forth in this order, from your vocabulary. You've yet to make a point that isn't embarrassingly obvious.

This has always been the goal.

Bullshit. There are entire industries which we should be leading, which we aren't because Republicans refuse to make the necessary investment.

You realize that this is the exact same thought, don't you? And, again, this has always been the goal.

You sound dumber when you say simplistic shit like it's some sort of revelation.

Your ability to say stupid shit is without equal. I'm tired of it, so go play with Adder.

TM