Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...ason-2/525804/

Read that and tell me you don't want to watch his series.

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It sounds great. I imagine it's the sort of TV I would watch if I watched anything other than soccer and (very recently) nature documentaries (with our foreign exchange student, who is fascinated by them).

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

She did not do anything to him. She had no need to protect the privacy of someone who was a jerk to her. Even had he not been a jerk to her, he will not be harassed, stalked, threatened or otherwise be put in physical danger because of this. She would be. The two things are not comparable.

Chicago question
 

Do I want to stay downtown or Wicker Park (or somewhere else like Logan Square)? Thanks in advance,

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You are totally ducking the question. The question is not whether she "needed to protect his privacy" -- she made her own decision to violate it. She could have written about what happened without naming him, and that piece could have been a part of the important conversation many people think we are having but without trading on the page hits it got from revealing salacious details about a celebrity. I think we all understand that she did it at least partly out of revenge. You are working hard to avoid identifying any other justification for what she did.

Re: Chicago question
 

Not downtown. Stay in a neighborhood. It's been years since I was in Wicker Park, but that instinct seems right. Depends on where you need to be during the day.

Re: Chicago question
 

How many days, and for work? If just traveling you might want to stay at a couple different places. From the Moth I've been in the loop, Hyde Park and Evanston. The Miracle Mile stuff is north of the loop. I'd say in the loop is best for public transport to other areas, and good on its own for places to drink/eat/see.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

https://twitter.com/lauren_kelley/st...84675610578946 It looks like she didn't seek babe.net out, they sought her out. And sooner or later, her identity is going to come out, because if they heard about her through the grapevine, someone in that grapevine without journalistic ethics is going to speak up. I feel really bad for her when that happens. And this doesn't help improve my already poor feelings towards babe.net.

More here: http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/15/medi...iew/index.html

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Hopefully everyone moves on before she's outed.

eta: This piece is good: https://jezebel.com/babe-what-are-you-doing-1822114753

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It’s teasing the threshold of defamation/false light.

If this sort of sexual doxxing continues, someone’s going to target a litigious Peter Thiel type, and we’ll see Hulk Hogan v. Gawker, Part Deux.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Every prosecutor should have to take two pro bono defense cases a year. See it from both sides.

There is nothing scarier than a career prosecutor who’s done nothing else. That sort of mind is necessarily warped.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Wut (see all three tweets)

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Dude. If she had no need to protect his privacy, then there was no violation. It's not a violation of a person who wronged you's privacy to tell people they wronged you. The wrong-doer has no privacy interest.

She told someone in the press that he was a jerk (you keep acting like she wrote it when she didn't). She gets to do that. Famous dude was a jerk. That's news these days, especially when he was a jerk in sort of the way everyone is talking about.

She did it, per what she said, because she saw hypocrisy in his anti-harassment posing at the golden globes. But so what? Someone who wrongs you doesn't get to claim you can't tell anyone. Where are you getting that?

Re: Chicago question
 

What are you in town for? Both of those neighborhoods are super easy to get to via the blue line (or Uber/lyft) from the Loop area.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You know what? You're wronging me right now and if you don't shut the fuck up about this, I'm going to find you and slap you.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Bring it, but be aware that I may mention your skinny-ass knees or other aspects of your physical appearance that may hurt your feelings.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

And another thing. I accept that one of those Carolina teams has the mascot Gamecocks, because a gamecock is apparently a real thing. But when the Jumbotron displays the team's name as "Game!!!! Cocks!!!!", that is just wrong on so many levels. Mainly on one level. I assume there is a corresponding chant, which is equally disturbing, and makes me hope that Aziz Ansari never works in Hollywood again.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Have you seen the women's sweatpants that say "cocks" across the bum? You'll be calling for the death penalty for Aziz when you do.

Meanwhile, I'm debating whether to start up with Master of None right now. Probably will watch an episode of Crashing first.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

First, I am not really sure what you mean by "skinny-ass knees." Does anybody other than the morbidly obese have knees that could be described as fat? Second, if you body shame me, you are wronging me, and you lose your right to complain about any efforts I may make to publicly humiliate you.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

First, any true Scotsman, I mean Minnesotan, knows that "skinny knees" was one of the stupid scout knocks on Teddy Bridgewater pre-draft. (Please ignore the knee that later dislocated and threatened him with amputation or worse and put his career in jeopardy).

Second, you are free to tell the world how I body shamed you. I will not object.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I guess I just disagree that acting like a jerk* is a good reason to have that kind of story told about you. Maybe I just respect or value that sort of privacy more.

*And not in "the way everyone is talking about," unless you mean that the story appealed to readers' prurient interests.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It's one of those nameless prurient stories one can't even effectively refute it without getting dragged into the mud.

What's he going to do, explain to us how she's misrepresented "the claw", with some more detailed explanation of how it works and why its a turn-on? Yeah, that will go well.

I've seen some suggestion that because she was a young photographer and he was an established star there might be some kind of power dynamics that made this more abusive in nature - anyone got thoughts on that?

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

It’s a bit dramatic, but this person has a whole a lot of thoughts on the issue: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-accuser.html

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I see very little in there on the pros and cons of the claw.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Robert Stack has my proxy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A83EzapOz_w

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Would it bother you if the story was about how he yelled at a waiter and left a bad tip? I assume no and that you think being a jerk about sex is more private than being a jerk about other stuff. I dunno.

Don't agree at all. He was sexually aggressive in a way that probably doesn't meet the legal definition of assault but might meet the student conduct policy definition on many campuses. That it's just slightly over the line on the other side doesn't make it not in the same vein.

I don't recall if this was shared here, but I think it makes the point.

ETA: The point being, yeah, this is normal stuff that's happened to everybody and isn't what we generally think about as assault but none of that makes it okay either.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes, Sebby, there are lots of stupid takes out there. You're doing a good job of sharing the worst of them.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Look, dude... I read the Babe thing. I read the texts Ansari exchanged with her as well.

I see no sin in Grace putting her story out there. She did, and the public has properly criticized her for it (because it's not a #metoo situation). Seems an appropriate response.

And, appropriately, Ansari is not going to lose his career over it.

In fact, one could say this story is a godsend. It has defined the boundary where #metoo cannot be accused. That's helpful. (And, thankfully, efforts by some to suggest Ansari's behavior should fall into a new category, #kindabutnotreallymetoo, has been rejected [Despite Vox's and Vice's efforts]).

Is Ansari a cad? Perhaps. Is Grace's story worth discussing because men should understand that, if you have to coerce the hell out of a woman, you should Just Stop? Absolutely.

But, is it a crime to manipulatively persuade someone into sex? No. Is it a #metoo situation if you nag a woman into having sex with you while you're both undressed and hooking up? No. Is pestering to the point a woman decides, "Fuck it. I'll just blow him so he'll stfu already and I can get back to watching Seinfeld" a mens rea moment? No.

And does Grace's story infantilize women? Yes, it does. He had no control over this woman. Could not tank her career as she worked in a different area. Could not physically compel her to anything (he weighs all of a buck twenty), and nor did he try. She could have left at any time she wanted. In many regards this instance sounds like the joke Chappelle took shit for -- the one where he asked, quite reasonably, why a woman who claimed to be offended by a man masturbating on the other end of a phone didn't "just hang up."

Ansari may be a cad. But so are a lot of people. It's worth talking about this stuff. But it isn't #metoo.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This is not in the same vein with sexual assault. Sexual assault is defined by a criminal code, not a university behavior code. No prosecutor would look at this case. No detective would even investigate it.

Universities are private institutions that may apply any code they like to their students. Those codes are neither precedential nor persuasive as to the point of whether sexual assault involving adults who are not university students occurred. Those codes are not even precedential from one campus to another. The laws which govern sexual assault are written by legislators and administered by judges. They are not written by committees of professors and administered by university staff.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I mostly agree with you, but why is this a point you need to make? Like, what's the point of you, personally, policing the boundaries of #metoo? Where did you get the notion that it's only about criminal or illegal conduct and does not include men being shitty about sex, especially if that topic is "worth talking about?"

I think it's worth talking about and don't particularly care or think I'm the right person to decide whether it's #metoo.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

You can insist that but it isn't going to keep you from getting banned from campus when you violate its definition of assault.

Many of them are public. All of them get public money. Title IX requires them them to take steps to combat sexual assault on campus. This is why they have adopted more stringent codes.

One thing I think is interesting is that this conflict between Grace's worldview - which is in line with how those codes generally go - and the rest of ours, which is much more consistent with criminal and civil liability. To the extent that there are any negative consequences for Ansari - and as I've said I don't think there will be anything meaningful - it is because some group of people, likely younger people, who think that conduct like this is problematic, per the campus codes. Public opinion is not written by legislators and administered by judges. It is definitely shaped by, among other things, what people are taught in school.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

The point needs to be made because Babe launched its missive in the midst of a #metoo moment with the intent of unfairly lumping Ansari into the group of men who are rightly accused of #metoo offenses. That he is not of that crowd cannot be stated strongly enough. That its action in offering that story with the suggestion he is cannot be decried strongly enough. (If you read the Babe piece carefully, it is subtly written to suggest lack of consent and rudeness (for instance, "I prefer red wine, but [Ansari] gave me no choice but white"... translating generously to, "he wasn't thinking about my needs, but his own" or less generously, "he was getting me tipsy").

I don't blame Grace. I smell the stink of creative editing all over this piece, and the people at Babe are getting exactly the controversy they wanted.

"Bad sex" is a topic worth discussing. And guys thinking sex should work like porn are fucked up, and we should have a discussion about how porn is fucking up sex for some people. But this Babe article is a very cynical media campaign, and it only started that conversation by accident. It was written, quite obviously, as a gotcha piece by a very sleazy editor. They wanted a pelt to put on the wall, and it backfired against Grace (with no damage to Babe). And when it gets too hot, the folks at Babe will throw Grace under the bus. They'll leak her name and write a self-serving meta piece about the episode, like Rolling Stone did with the UVA thing.

Grace, Ansari, us... We're all being played here, by Babe. And because this is a really important conversation which should lead to a constructive discussion of what women want in the bedroom, and what men are doing wrong, it should be raised more constructively. It shouldn't start as a tainted thing, initiated by a sleazy website using Harvey Levin's "gotcha" approach.

However, I do agree, to the extent it started the conversation, it's a positive. But if you've worked with or around the media people who start these things (and we all know a few), this story stinks like shit from the start.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

He's accused of being aggressive and engaging in less than enthusiastic consensual sexual conduct, or, as Grace put it missing or ignoring her signals. That sounds like #metoo to me, but I'm not the expert on its boundaries you are, so maybe I'm wrong.

There was nothing subtle about it.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

This piece is also very good and I think gets to the essence of what Adder was trying to convey.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-opportunity

TM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

But it's not going to get you convicted or even investigated off campus.

This event took place off campus. Again, in the real world, where Title IX concerns are not considered, this is not getting even investigated.

I don;t see him getting convicted of anything on campus, either. He was coercive and crude, but no compelling force was brought to bear. He was a pest, and a creep. But the door was always open for her to leave. She was clearly neither afraid nor so disturbed that she felt the need to run away, or call anyone. No, she hung out and watched Seinfeld, at his suggestion.

That's a discussion for them to have. Another discussion for them to have is, "Does suggesting women should be able to file a grievance for a man being a pest during a sexual encounter include the presumption women can't handle such a situation for themselves? I don't know a woman who couldn't handle this situation with a simple, 'I'm getting an Uber. I'm out of here.'"
Agreed. But the words "sexual assault" used in the context of off-campus acts, are very much terms of art. People lose their freedom when they are used. And correctly, in the real world, they are taken very seriously.

"A miserable sexual encounter" describes Ansari's situation. Calling it sexual assault insults assault victims.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Missing signals is not #metoo. Ignoring them? Yes.

I agree. The writer sucks. The shading to suggest more nefarious behavior is painfully obvious. But the intent was to be subtle. Unfortunately, at $10 a hour, these website aren't hiring any William Safires in the making.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

Yes, I think that what you do in the privacy of a bedroom is more private than what you do in a public restaurant. YMMV, but I doubt it.

Oh, bullshit. This didn't happen on a campus and it didn't involve minors. He is in his thirties, and she was no minor. The current conversation is "around" men who have abused their professional authority, something you can't say Aziz did.

I read that before and now I've read it again, and I'm not sure I disagree with any of it. You seem to be writing under the misunderstanding that I'm defending Aziz or saying that what he did is "okay," rather than responding to what I've actually said.

If the NSA bugged Aziz's room and released recordings that a reporter used to write an article about how he behaved that night, I expect that the left would be in an uproar about the invasion of his privacy. Apparently it's OK to make an example of him in the name of reforming our sexual mores.

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 

I think a sub-lesson of all this might be, Be good in the sack, or don't try at all.