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-   -   Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying. (http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=880)

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 12:19 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512489)
I've seen some suggestion that because she was a young photographer and he was an established star there might be some kind of power dynamics that made this more abusive in nature - anyone got thoughts on that?

Sure.

There is no escaping power dynamics. He's a small, skinny, physically unimposing man. But he's rich and famous. If you're a large man, there's a physical power dynamic. If you're older, you are in danger of exploiting someone who is naïve. If you're famous, you most certainly are taking advantage of people who will do anything to be close to fame. If you're rich or powerful, same thing. At some point you will probably fall into one of these categories if you didn't get married straight out of high school.

But the fact that these dynamics are so prevalent is because we have set up our society that places value on men as earners and players and power brokers while we value women in a very different way--for their looks and service. Sexism. Patriarchy. Clearly. To be certain, women value looks too and there are men who value much more than beauty. But that's where things start.

It is ridiculous to think that rich, famous, powerful men will cease to take advantage of what makes them attractive to women. And not every situation in which a man is aggressive is unwelcome by women--we can debate whether that desire to control and be aggressive is something we program in men (I tend to think we do) and we can debate why that aggressiveness is attractive to women, but until we move to a place where we have manage to fundamentally change the different ways in which men and women are judged and socialized, these dynamics will always exist.

So, I think that Guardian article is a good place to start the conversation. I hope it got Aziz to think about why he expected what he did out of their encounter. And I think the article wasn't a waste of time because it made us all think about where we should draw the lines in our own interactions. But I would prefer to resist the knee-jerk negative reaction to any relationship or encounter in which a power dynamic exists (other than one that is quite clearly a violation in a job setting).

TM

Adder 01-17-2018 12:22 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512502)
This piece is also very good and I think gets to the essence of what Adder was trying to convey.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-opportunity

TM

Yes, that is good. Especially as to "it's not assault so it's fine." Nope.

Adder 01-17-2018 12:24 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512503)
Calling it sexual assault insults assault victims.

I'm so glad assault victims have you to speak up for them in this way. :rolleyes:

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 12:24 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512494)
Would it bother you if the story was about how he yelled at a waiter and left a bad tip? I assume no and that you think being a jerk about sex is more private than being a jerk about other stuff. I dunno.

This is a terrible analogy. There is no personal relationship between waiter and customer and being a jerk in a public place means it's already...public.

Do you not believe that certain relationships (even brief ones) come with some level of privacy? If you act poorly in any instance we should all get to hear about it?

Obviously with celebrity, you're being paid for giving that up to a certain extent and if you have a lot of one night stands, you should expect your personal business to be shared. But you're talking about this like any bad act or moment of poor judgment is fair game for the world. That's ridiculous.

TM

Adder 01-17-2018 12:25 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512504)
Missing signals is not #metoo. Ignoring them? Yes.

Well, she says she doesn't know which it is, soo....

Adder 01-17-2018 12:32 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512510)
Do you not believe that certain relationships (even brief ones) come with some level of privacy?

As to the other participant in the relationship? Not really. I mean, one hopes people will be decent, but no, you shouldn't expect that your hookups will stay silent about them.

Quote:

If you act poorly in any instance we should all get to hear about it?
I don't think you have any grounds to complain should your "victim" choose to tell people about it. I do not think it makes you in any way a victim if they do.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 12:35 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512508)
Yes, that is good. Especially as to "it's not assault so it's fine." Nope.

Another good read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/17/o...ht-region&_r=0

TM

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 12:41 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512512)
As to the other participant in the relationship? Not really. I mean, one hopes people will be decent, but no, you shouldn't expect that your hookups will stay silent about them.

I don't think you have any grounds to complain should your "victim" choose to tell people about it. I do not think it makes you in any way a victim if they do.

Wow. I have a very different expectation when it comes to privacy. If my wife gave me a terrible blowjob, she would be incredibly offended, horrified, embarrassed, angry, and betrayed if I went around telling my friends about it. And I could say the same thing about a girl I dated briefly in high school who was so overly aggressive it was a complete turnoff.

You're weird. And let me guess, you're going to say that these types of examples don't count, right?

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 12:45 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512499)
To the extent that there are any negative consequences for Ansari - and as I've said I don't think there will be anything meaningful

Seriously? You have got to be kidding me.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 12:47 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thurgreedmarshall (Post 512502)

2

LessinSF 01-17-2018 01:01 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 512480)
What are you in town for? Both of those neighborhoods are super easy to get to via the blue line (or Uber/lyft) from the Loop area.

I am going to eat, drink, hang out, explore the city. It has been fifteen years since I last did so. And I prefer funky, dive bars to fancy, upscale places.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 01:03 PM

Apparently I'm obsessed
 
There is a lot that's interesting in this article as well.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ushpmg00000009

TM

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2018 01:21 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield (Post 512500)
The point needs to be made because Babe launched its missive in the midst of a #metoo moment with the intent of unfairly lumping Ansari into the group of men who are rightly accused of #metoo offenses. That he is not of that crowd cannot be stated strongly enough. That its action in offering that story with the suggestion he is cannot be decried strongly enough. (If you read the Babe piece carefully, it is subtly written to suggest lack of consent and rudeness (for instance, "I prefer red wine, but [Ansari] gave me no choice but white"... translating generously to, "he wasn't thinking about my needs, but his own" or less generously, "he was getting me tipsy").

I don't blame Grace. I smell the stink of creative editing all over this piece, and the people at Babe are getting exactly the controversy they wanted.

"Bad sex" is a topic worth discussing. And guys thinking sex should work like porn are fucked up, and we should have a discussion about how porn is fucking up sex for some people. But this Babe article is a very cynical media campaign, and it only started that conversation by accident. It was written, quite obviously, as a gotcha piece by a very sleazy editor. They wanted a pelt to put on the wall, and it backfired against Grace (with no damage to Babe). And when it gets too hot, the folks at Babe will throw Grace under the bus. They'll leak her name and write a self-serving meta piece about the episode, like Rolling Stone did with the UVA thing.

Grace, Ansari, us... We're all being played here, by Babe. And because this is a really important conversation which should lead to a constructive discussion of what women want in the bedroom, and what men are doing wrong, it should be raised more constructively. It shouldn't start as a tainted thing, initiated by a sleazy website using Harvey Levin's "gotcha" approach.

However, I do agree, to the extent it started the conversation, it's a positive. But if you've worked with or around the media people who start these things (and we all know a few), this story stinks like shit from the start.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with every word here. The Jezebel piece that talked about how badly babe.net fucked this up is worth reading, because while this is an interesting discussion that probably needs to be had, this is just poor execution. This piece was just terribly done, and knowing that babe sought her out rather than her shopping it around makes much more sense. The editor said that the writer was a contemporary of Grace, and it does read like a 23 year old wrote it.

Dudes should be more aware of their partners during sexytimes. Dudes should check in from time to time to see if she's having a good time. Women should feel comfortable saying "whoa" without having to justify it or give that (consensual) get-it-over-with blowjob. Women should also feel comfortable grabbing the reins and taking over. And dudes should be happy to hand them over. Porn shouldn't be the sole educational tool for sex in this country. This is a really fucking important discussion, but because it's framed in the "famous man fails at fucking reluctant 23-year-old" context, the bigger issue is lost.

SEC_Chick 01-17-2018 01:28 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
So how do we feel about the Stormy Daniels piece where she says Trump is bad in bed relative to Ansari?

Hilarious that Trump paid her to keep quiet years after she gave the interview to In Touch.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 01-17-2018 01:40 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 512517)
I am going to eat, drink, hang out, explore the city. It has been fifteen years since I last did so. And I prefer funky, dive bars to fancy, upscale places.

Probably downtown/Loop area is your best home base then. You can get almost anywhere from there pretty easily.

Hank Chinaski 01-17-2018 01:44 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017...ster768-v3.jpg

President Obama is 6' 1". He looks an inch taller than Trump. Trump's medical report says he is 239 pounds and 6'3". 239 is 1 pound less than obese for a 6'3" man.

There is speculation that the 239 is a lie, but the 6'3" clearly is, alleged to get below that limit. At long last is there nothing that is beyond the need to lie?

#Imagirther

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 01:47 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 512519)
Dudes should be more aware of their partners during sexytimes. Dudes should check in from time to time to see if she's having a good time. Women should feel comfortable saying "whoa" without having to justify it or give that (consensual) get-it-over-with blowjob. Women should also feel comfortable grabbing the reins and taking over. And dudes should be happy to hand them over. Porn shouldn't be the sole educational tool for sex in this country. This is a really fucking important discussion, but because it's framed in the "famous man fails at fucking reluctant 23-year-old" context, the bigger issue is lost.

And so endeth the lesson.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 01:51 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 512519)

I could have sworn it was you I was responding to when I linked to that one.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 01:52 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512520)
So how do we feel about the Stormy Daniels piece where she says Trump is bad in bed?

Unsurprised?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski (Post 512522)
President Obama is 6' 1". He looks an inch taller than Trump. Trump's medical report says he is 239 pounds and 6'3". 239 is 1 pound less than obese for a 6'3" man.

There is speculation that the 239 is a lie, but the 6'3" clearly is, alleged to get below that limit. At long last is there nothing that is beyond the need to lie?

#Imagirther

Of all the things he could lie about, why not about his weight? He's a vain man. And obviously not the healthiest guy out there.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-17-2018 01:56 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LessinSF (Post 512517)
I am going to eat, drink, hang out, explore the city. It has been fifteen years since I last did so. And I prefer funky, dive bars to fancy, upscale places.

I think Wicker is a place for funky more than dive. It's been years since I frequented Chicago, but back in the day the true dives were out at the edges of the city - the ethnic neighborhoods in the far Northwest or Southwest and the African American catfish joints down in South Chicago. There were a couple I liked in my own 'hood, Rogers' Park, but last time I was there most of them had been upscaled and funkified.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-17-2018 01:58 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512520)
So how do we feel about the Stormy Daniels piece where she says Trump is bad in bed relative to Ansari?

Hilarious that Trump paid her to keep quiet years after she gave the interview to In Touch.

I'm going to be real disappointed if that piece doesn't get a Fakey when Trump starts giving out the awards tonight.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-17-2018 01:59 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 512521)
Probably downtown/Loop area is your best home base then. You can get almost anywhere from there pretty easily.

There used to be some pretty divey stuff just west and toward the south of the loop, has that all been gentrified now?

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2018 02:25 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512502)
This piece is also very good and I think gets to the essence of what Adder was trying to convey.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-opportunity

TM

Jill Filipovic rocks.

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2018 02:29 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512515)
Seriously? You have got to be kidding me.

I think that I'd be having performance issues from now until the end of time if my technique were to be described in such a way and disseminated to so many people. It would take me YEARS to get over something like that. I'm vaguely surprised they didn't go into penis size/relative flaccidity in the article.

But maybe that's not a consequence worth considering.

Replaced_Texan 01-17-2018 02:37 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop (Post 512524)
I could have sworn it was you I was responding to when I linked to that one.

You were! I have been in several discussions about this in various forums, so I forget who said what where.

I will say this, I'm so glad my dating years are well behind me and my husband and I have figured most of our shit out about this stuff.

Also: About a year ago, Porn Hub launched a sex education platform on their site. I haven't checked it out (nor do I know if it's still up and running), but in the right hands, it could be an invaluable tool for figuring this shit out in our puritanical society that is so scared of kids having sex we'd rather everyone just have sex wrong instead. Here's an article about it. http://mashable.com/2017/02/01/porn-.../#oAMzeOTxt5qY

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy 01-17-2018 02:39 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan (Post 512530)
I think that I'd be having performance issues from now until the end of time if my technique were to be described in such a way and disseminated to so many people. It would take me YEARS to get over something like that. I'm vaguely surprised they didn't go into penis size/relative flaccidity in the article.

But maybe that's not a consequence worth considering.

I know where he can go to get some help with his dating.

Adder 01-17-2018 02:44 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512514)
Wow. I have a very different expectation when it comes to privacy. If my wife gave me a terrible blowjob, she would be incredibly offended, horrified, embarrassed, angry, and betrayed if I went around telling my friends about it. And I could say the same thing about a girl I dated briefly in high school who was so overly aggressive it was a complete turnoff.

You're weird. And let me guess, you're going to say that these types of examples don't count, right?

TM

No, but I think there's a difference between how Ansari feels about it and whether its inappropriate for her expose his conduct.

There's also a difference between your wife and the girl you dated briefly in high school, whom you should probably assume has told her friends whatever you did that was embarrassing in your relationship.

Adder 01-17-2018 02:52 PM

Re: Apparently I'm obsessed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512518)
There is a lot that's interesting in this article as well.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ushpmg00000009

TM

Your obsession keeps turning up good ones. As for the encounters described in this one, we are apparently even more fucked up about sex than I thought.

Although I guess I should know that from some of what my wife has said about past relationships too.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 03:24 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512533)
No, but I think there's a difference between how Ansari feels about it and whether its inappropriate for her expose his conduct.

There's also a difference between your wife and the girl you dated briefly in high school, whom you should probably assume has told her friends whatever you did that was embarrassing in your relationship.

You've said nothing in this post. Nothing at all. And don't think we haven't all noticed that you flipped the hypothetical about the girl in HS to what she might share to please what amounts to a nothing-message.

If your argument is that no one should have any expectation of privacy until you are in a very serious relationship, you're fucking crazy. If you're saying that Aziz Ansari should have absolutely no expectation of privacy in any of his relationships without marriage or an NDA (and maybe you're not saying that, but I have nothing to go on), I'd say that's a pretty unfair position.

Celebrities surely should have an understanding that there are people out there who want to reveal any and all interactions with them and should probably act in accordance with that understanding. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't expect some level of privacy with people they are intimate with.

TM

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 03:28 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512533)
No, but I think there's a difference between how Ansari feels about it and whether its inappropriate for her expose his conduct.

There's also a difference between your wife and the girl you dated briefly in high school, whom you should probably assume has told her friends whatever you did that was embarrassing in your relationship.

Did he forego any expectation of privacy because he's a celebrity, because he treated her in a way she didn't like, or because the important of having a conversation to change sexual mores trumps any personal interests he might have?

greatwhitenorthchick 01-17-2018 03:34 PM

Jeff Flake
 
He gets up and he makes these grandiose speeches and blathers on about how democracy won't survive this blah blah blah, and then he does jack shit.* Fucking hypocrite.

*I suppose he donated to Doug Jones, but he has the ability to do something a lot more meaningful if he really believes the words that are coming out of his mouth.

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 03:41 PM

Re: Apparently I'm obsessed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adder (Post 512534)
Your obsession keeps turning up good ones. As for the encounters described in this one, we are apparently even more fucked up about sex than I thought.

Although I guess I should know that from some of what my wife has said about past relationships too.

This topic is a very interesting one to me.

I know women who have been raped. I know too many women who have been sexually assaulted. I have schooled friends and acquaintances many, many times on how differently people can react in dangerous situations--and how fighting back isn't always prudent or possible (fear often makes people just freeze) and the lack of it shouldn't be a sign of consent. Similarly, agreeing to sex isn't an automatic green light for the guy (or woman) to do whatever the fuck they want. It is absolutely amazing how many men think that once a woman wants to fuck an athlete it means she can no longer either remove consent or define exactly what type of sex she wants. I've lost friendships over arguments about Kobe fucking Bryant.

I have been in situations in which I have been aggressive (hopefully reading my partner well), I have been in positions where the woman I'm with is very aggressive. (I don't think either of us would appreciate the other person going off and blabbing to other people about it, by the way.) I've had women tell me specifically that we wouldn't be having sex at all only to have them completely and enthusiastically change their minds after getting into it hot and heavy.

I have also been in a position where I picked a woman up from a Minneapolis club (looooong ago--I was maybe 21), took her back to a friend's place with the explicit understanding that there would be some sexing, only to find out I was completely mistaken and the girl only want to fool around. She was also very young (probably 20 or 21 also) and I sat her down and told her that it was no problem, of course. But she really needed to be much more careful (hopefully without coming off as a condescending, paternalistic ass). She had no idea where she was or who I was and when we drove her home the next day, it turned out she was an hour away from her home. I was very nervous for her.

TM

ThurgreedMarshall 01-17-2018 03:44 PM

Re: Jeff Flake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 512537)
He gets up and he makes these grandiose speeches and blathers on about how democracy won't survive this blah blah blah, and then he does jack shit.* Fucking hypocrite.

*I suppose he donated to Doug Jones, but he has the ability to do something a lot more meaningful if he really believes the words that are coming out of his mouth.

Agreed. And he voted lock step with Republicans on that dumbass tax bill (and probably on every single bullshit Trump appointment). He's full of shit. And that particularly bothers me because I think he thinks he isn't.

TM

SEC_Chick 01-17-2018 03:59 PM

Re: Jeff Flake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick (Post 512537)
He gets up and he makes these grandiose speeches and blathers on about how democracy won't survive this blah blah blah, and then he does jack shit.* Fucking hypocrite.

*I suppose he donated to Doug Jones, but he has the ability to do something a lot more meaningful if he really believes the words that are coming out of his mouth.

So what exactly is he supposed to do?

He's getting called a Trumpist on Twitter. Short of voting with Democrats 100% of he time, what can a conservative who still has his conscience do that could satisfy you?

Did you just call me Coltrane? 01-17-2018 04:09 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512528)
There used to be some pretty divey stuff just west and toward the south of the loop, has that all been gentrified now?

Definitively west. Now it's all Michelin stars, Google offices and the new McDonald's HQ.

Tyrone Slothrop 01-17-2018 04:11 PM

Re: Jeff Flake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512540)
So what exactly is he supposed to do?

He's getting called a Trumpist on Twitter. Short of voting with Democrats 100% of he time, what can a conservative who still has his conscience do that could satisfy you?

When Sessions announced that DOJ withdrew the Cole memo (on deferring to states that have legalized marijuana), the Republican Senator from Colorado, Cory Gardner, said he would hold up DOJ appointments:

https://twitter.com/sencorygardner/s...34654685601792

Senators have all sorts of leverage beyond the ability to make speeches.

greatwhitenorthchick 01-17-2018 04:14 PM

Re: Jeff Flake
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick (Post 512540)
So what exactly is he supposed to do?

He's getting called a Trumpist on Twitter. Short of voting with Democrats 100% of he time, what can a conservative who still has his conscience do that could satisfy you?

Perhaps not vote for a tax bill that adds trillions to the deficit.

Did you just call me Coltrane? 01-17-2018 04:17 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy (Post 512526)
I think Wicker is a place for funky more than dive. It's been years since I frequented Chicago, but back in the day the true dives were out at the edges of the city - the ethnic neighborhoods in the far Northwest or Southwest and the African American catfish joints down in South Chicago. There were a couple I liked in my own 'hood, Rogers' Park, but last time I was there most of them had been upscaled and funkified.

75 cent hard boiled eggs at Richards. And they encourage smoking - I have no idea how they get away with that.

Adder 01-17-2018 04:18 PM

Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall (Post 512535)
If your argument is that no one should have any expectation of privacy until you are in a very serious relationship, you're fucking crazy.

My argument is that if you are a jerk to a women you are trying to sleep with, you shouldn't expect that to stay private, especially if you're famous.

My observation is that if you expect your exes and hook ups to keep all of your foibles secret, you're going to be disappointed. Thankfully, they aren't of much interest to many people so you won't see them in the paper.

But fundamentally I'm saying Ansari is not a victim here.

Quote:

If you're saying that Aziz Ansari should have absolutely no expectation of privacy in any of his relationships without marriage or an NDA (and maybe you're not saying that, but I have nothing to go on), I'd say that's a pretty unfair position.
Let's say he sincerely thought she wouldn't tell anyone about it. So what? He obviously has no ability to stop her from telling anyone.

Quote:

But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't expect some level of privacy with people they are intimate with.
As I said, we all obviously expect people to be decent, but we don't have recourse if they're not (and truthful).

Hank Chinaski 01-17-2018 04:21 PM

Re: Chicago question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? (Post 512541)
Definitively west. Now it's all Michelin stars, Google offices and the new McDonald's HQ.

Out around Wrigley is pretty good, yes? i was at a bar on Michigan across from the theater where Dillinger bought it. Along Michigan in that area there were several nice bars.


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