Get Me Out Of This Shit Career

[sebastian_dangerfield]

The primary reason that most of us are stuck and spinning our wheels trying to make the leap of of law is that no other field appears to pay people with our background as well as law and experience in law is only attractive to other legal employers. So we're stuck with the golden handcuffs...

If you look at the books titled "What You Can Do With a Law Degree" you'll find most of the suggested options unappealing and economically unsatisfying. Teaching and non-profit work are not options for most of us. In-house work is next to impossible to find these days.

The trick for most of us is to leave law and make reasonably close to what you're making in law, or at least have the opportunity to make reaonably close to what you make in law within a reasonable period of time.

OK, so the information we need is two-fold:

(a) What fields can we go into which will provide us with pay comparable to law; and

(b) What are the hot geographic markets for these fields?

So if you have a substantive answer to this question -- hopefully with numbers behind it -- post it.

[TimeOut]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The primary reason that most of us are stuck and spinning our wheels trying to make the leap of of law is that no other field appears to pay people with our background as well as law and experience in law is only attractive to other legal employers. So we're stuck with the golden handcuffs...

If you look at the books titled "What You Can Do With a Law Degree" you'll find most of the suggested options unappealing and economically unsatisfying. Teaching and non-profit work are not options for most of us. In-house work is next to impossible to find these days.

The trick for most of us is to leave law and make reasonably close to what you're making in law, or at least have the opportunity to make reaonably close to what you make in law within a reasonable period of time.

OK, so the information we need is two-fold:

(a) What fields can we go into which will provide us with pay comparable to law; and

(b) What are the hot geographic markets for these fields?

So if you have a substantive answer to this question -- hopefully with numbers behind it -- post it.

Define "pay comparable to law."

A ton of non law fields pay in the six figures and some top out at a Big Law partner salary.

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The primary reason that most of us are stuck and spinning our wheels trying to make the leap of of law is that no other field appears to pay people with our background as well as law and experience in law is only attractive to other legal employers. So we're stuck with the golden handcuffs...

If you look at the books titled "What You Can Do With a Law Degree" you'll find most of the suggested options unappealing and economically unsatisfying. Teaching and non-profit work are not options for most of us. In-house work is next to impossible to find these days.

The trick for most of us is to leave law and make reasonably close to what you're making in law, or at least have the opportunity to make reaonably close to what you make in law within a reasonable period of time.

OK, so the information we need is two-fold:

(a) What fields can we go into which will provide us with pay comparable to law; and

(b) What are the hot geographic markets for these fields?

So if you have a substantive answer to this question -- hopefully with numbers behind it -- post it.

I have always wondered why so many people in politics were/are former lawyers. Of course, I don't know what being governor/president/mayor pays, so maybe that could be an alternative.

[Stugots]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield

(a) What fields can we go into which will provide us with pay comparable to law...

Answer: Non law-related fields without serious luck and/or connections (i.e., for the average person)? None.

You want to have it all (no problem; I do too). You want a $150K salary for 5 years of experience and prospects of $250K+/yr after 10ish years and more beyond that. But, don't want the billing, the hours, the stress, the firm politics, pressures to develop business, etc. Just want the money, in a non-legal career, wihtout at the lawfirm pitfalls. Here are the options to bigfirm practice and pitfalls as I see them:

(1) work for the govt in a legal capacity. States pay okay; feds pay better; benefits are good. Salary can be near $100k soon, but pretty much levels off and stays stagnant. Very difficlut to make more than $120K working for the gov't.

(2) non-firm jobs in the private sector. In-house, teach, non-profit, westlaw rep, headhunter, etc. Most don't pay too well; some very boring. In-house comparable to lawfirms in the initial years; however, unless you become the general counsel, salary is stagnant after $150k-ish.

(3) move to a smaller firm. Less money, but presumably less stress, less hours, etc.

(4) Lottery, sugar mama/daddy, crime, prostitution, porn.

(5) Bite the bullet and acknowledge that going to law school was a mistake for you. Find a professional field of interest where you can make good money (business, medicine, real estate, sales, and the like). Then, either get an advanced degree to assist with that field or enter it at the ground level and work your way up to successes and potential riches. This is what non-lawyers do. No reason that lawyers, entering a non-legal field, don't have to do it also.

Options 1-3 are all good, legitimate ways to get away from the bigfirm life. Must accept the tradeoff however that the money will not be as good. No. 4 could be fun and have perks; could also lead to time the big house. No. 5 is the only real option, for most people, to make biglaw cash in a non-legal profession. Takes lots of sacrafice, time and work.

That's just the way it is. We don't like to admit it; that's why we keep asking the question.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Stugots
Answer: Non law-related fields without serious luck and/or connections (i.e., for the average person)? None.

You want to have it all (no problem; I do too). You want a $150K salary for 5 years of experience and prospects of $250K+/yr after 10ish years and more beyond that. But, don't want the billing, the hours, the stress, the firm politics, pressures to develop business, etc. Just want the money, in a non-legal career, wihtout at the lawfirm pitfalls. Here are the options to bigfirm practice and pitfalls as I see them:

(1) work for the govt in a legal capacity. States pay okay; feds pay better; benefits are good. Salary can be near $100k soon, but pretty much levels off and stays stagnant. Very difficlut to make more than $120K working for the gov't.

(2) non-firm jobs in the private sector. In-house, teach, non-profit, westlaw rep, headhunter, etc. Most don't pay too well; some very boring. In-house comparable to lawfirms in the initial years; however, unless you become the general counsel, salary is stagnant after $150k-ish.

(3) move to a smaller firm. Less money, but presumably less stress, less hours, etc.

(4) Lottery, sugar mama/daddy, crime, prostitution, porn.

(5) Bite the bullet and acknowledge that going to law school was a mistake for you. Find a professional field of interest where you can make good money (business, medicine, real estate, sales, and the like). Then, either get an advanced degree to assist with that field or enter it at the ground level and work your way up to successes and potential riches. This is what non-lawyers do. No reason that lawyers, entering a non-legal field, don't have to do it also.

Options 1-3 are all good, legitimate ways to get away from the bigfirm life. Must accept the tradeoff however that the money will not be as good. No. 4 could be fun and have perks; could also lead to time the big house. No. 5 is the only real option, for most people, to make biglaw cash in a non-legal profession. Takes lots of sacrafice, time and work.

That's just the way it is. We don't like to admit it; that's why we keep asking the question.

Ok, you've answered the first half of the question. And you're right.

The best option for litigators is sales. So now answer the second part of the question... what are the emerging industries where sales will be hot in the coming decade and what are the best geographic markets for jobs with high salary growth potential?

I'll answer part of my own question by saying that I've scoured my area, Phildelphia greater met area, for sales positions, and there are none because no one is selling shit here because no one in this area has any money and no new business is coming into town. So, (a) what would you sell if you could and (b) where would you sell it?

S(I've heard Raliegh Durham is an area on the move)D

[evenodds]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Ok, you've answered the first half of the question. And you're right.

The best option for litigators is sales.

I disagree that "sales" is the best option for ex-lawyers. (Ignoring the fact that everything is sales, of course.)

In sales, you are still living the same life at the same beckoned call of your clients, contributing nothing of value. How is that better than what you do now? Is providing widgets, financial plans, drugs, software, or insurance more soul-satisfying?

The real route to economic freedom is entrepreneurship. Find a need. Start a company. Work your ass off to make it work. Actually build something from nothing.

I have many friends who left successful law practices to carve out successful and lucrative lives outside the law. Their jobs include:

• certified financial planner at private investment firm
• legal headhunter
• sports agent
• lobbyist
• personal manager
• business development vice president
• private foundation executive
• record company executive
• restauranteur
• retail store owner
• investment banker

When considering a move, don't limit your options. It's a much bigger world out there.

[pony_trekker]

Originally posted by Stugots
Answer: Non law-related fields without serious luck and/or connections (i.e., for the average person)? None.

Throw lefty, get your fastball over the mid-eighties and work on a curve and a change and you're in.

[pony_trekker]

Originally posted by evenodds
I disagree that "sales" is the best option for ex-lawyers. (Ignoring the fact that everything is sales, of course.)

Anyone with any sort of a sales ability would not even consider law skool in the first place.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by pony_trekker
Anyone with any sort of a sales ability would not even consider law skool in the first place.

Dude, I worked in sales for years and I can attest to the fact that sales experience is worth as much as knowledge of black letter law before the majority of juries, and a healthy number of judges. I take it as the highest compliment when bookish sorts accuse me of succeeding by using style over substance.

On the flip side, I recently had a very nerdy judge rip me a new ass when I tried to slide a very sketchy argument past her. The dorks can be awfully nasty when they think they're slapping around a shyster or a slacker. Fuck it... I like getting nailed from time to time. Keeps my act sharp. Getting away with too much style over substance makes a man lazy...

Oh, and sales experience is a must for selling your bill to the client, win or lose. No one knows how to try cases anymore in the commercial field because none of the kids have personality. You gotta relate as a human to a judge or jury, and you can only do that by being confident and fluid in your delivery. These overstressed are too busy reading law review articles when they should be out honing their "sales pitch" to the judge/jury.

[pony_trekker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sebastian_d

You equate sales experience with sales ability.

[Stugots]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
So, (a) what would you sell if you could and (b) where would you sell it?

I just mentioned sales because I have a friend who makes a freakin' mint in Phoenix as pharmaceutical co sales rep. Drugs and high end medical equipment (like MRIs, etc.) seem to be booming. I suppose areas with lots of seniors need lots of new drugs and pricey medical equipment. Wouldn't be my cup o' tea.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Stugots
I just mentioned sales because I have a friend who makes a freakin' mint in Phoenix as pharmaceutical co sales rep. Drugs and high end medical equipment (like MRIs, etc.) seem to be booming. I suppose areas with lots of seniors need lots of new drugs and pricey medical equipment. Wouldn't be my cup o' tea.

Ya know, med supply sales is a FANTASTIC gig. I know folks making way above what partners at most Philly firms make in that industry.

Pharma sales is a bit trickier. They tend to cap you around $150K in that field. That said, its low stress and great return on effort.

Mortgage sales was very hot for a long time, as well, but its petering out.

Her's a HUGE growth area -- catastrophy recovery/data security. The companies like Sungard who provide data backup/retreival have seen a huge boom since the war on terror began. People are rolling in cash in that industry. Its a great product to sell because companies have to have it and only so many firms sell it. This probably explains why I've had such a hard time getting an interview to sell in this field...

I know I've said this before, but I thought the point might bear repeating now that economic numbers are starting to look up. Hiring is usually the last thing to come back once companies start making more money than they used to (they usually spend first on capital expenditures, worthy or otherwise, that they had deferred), but with greater hiring comes greater willingness of businesses to consider non-traditional candidates. It really gets interesting for people wanting to cross over when the job market is so strong that employers can't find people with directly relevant experience and have to turn to people with mere related experience. That said, survivors of the law firm purges who may be further embittered by a few years of no bonuses may start to have more options in the year ahead.

Sorry for not having been around, but I've had a lot of things going on in my life recently and I got a little burned out on the message-board thing. Anyone who wants to chat privately can reach me at nytjunkie2000@yahoo.com, and I promise to respond more promptly. Warm regards to all ex-lawyers and wannabes.

:band:

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by NYT_Junkie
I know I've said this before, but I thought the point might bear repeating now that economic numbers are starting to look up. Hiring is usually the last thing to come back once companies start making more money than they used to (they usually spend first on capital expenditures, worthy or otherwise, that they had deferred), but with greater hiring comes greater willingness of businesses to consider non-traditional candidates. It really gets interesting for people wanting to cross over when the job market is so strong that employers can't find people with directly relevant experience and have to turn to people with mere related experience. That said, survivors of the law firm purges who may be further embittered by a few years of no bonuses may start to have more options in the year ahead.

Sorry for not having been around, but I've had a lot of things going on in my life recently and I got a little burned out on the message-board thing. Anyone who wants to chat privately can reach me at nytjunkie2000@yahoo.com, and I promise to respond more promptly. Warm regards to all ex-lawyers and wannabes.

:band:

EXACTLY.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME, THERE WILL BE NEW JOBS ON THE TABLE SOON. IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS BOARD AT ALL USEFUL, WE NEED SOME PEOPLE TO BEGIN POSTING WHERE AND IN WHAT INDUSTRY SECTORS THE BEST OPPORTUNITIES FOR LAWYERS SEEKING TO LEAVE LAW WILL EMERGE.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE, PLEASE POST THEM. THE GREATER THE INFORMATION EXCHANGED, THE BETTER THE CHANCE SOMEONE WILL AT A MINIMUM FIND AN IDEA OF WHERE TO GO TO GET THE OUT OF LAW.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Ya know, med supply sales is a FANTASTIC gig. I know folks making way above what partners at most Philly firms make in that industry.

Pharma sales is a bit trickier. They tend to cap you around $150K in that field. That said, its low stress and great return on effort.

Before quitting your job to be a drug rep, check out the DHHS OIG's new pharma compliance guideance. Came out in April, and the medical/pharma industry is still shaking out what pharma reps can and can't do to be compliant with the FSGs. My guess is that the DMEs will also find themselves looking at the pharma guideance.