Maybe you all should go back to citing blog quotes after all?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Yes, but timing is everything.

Pehaps RT, as the only one that contributes around here who possesses lady bits, can inform us, but my understanding is that it works the safe way regardless of timing: it prevents an fertilized egg from implanting itself in the uterus.

Which is why I think Cletus is right. If you believe rights attach to a fertilized egg at conception, then the pill (or at least some forms of it) are essentially "abortion."

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I don't know that it is dependent on brain fuction.

Oh, I'm certain that that any definition I can think of depends on brain function. I don't think something without a brain can be self-aware.

But there are degrees of self-awareness.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Don't use terms like "soul" is a discussion of science. Doing so is dragging religion into the debate. You have consciousness, which is a creation of electrical impulses in your brain. Your "soul" is a creation of religion. As we agreed earlier, that has no place in this debate. You forfeit the right to be considered a serious part of the back and forth if you regress into those concepts.

I'm not religious. I abhor religion, probably more than you do.

But I do believe in the soul. I do not believe that we are just a bunch of neurons firing. But if you want to limit your existance to what you can taste, touch, see and feel, feel free. I think that is ignorant and arrogant, but you are free to have whatever beliefs you want.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

Do you not think it possible that our soul is conscious (whatever that means)?

I'm sure you will be shocked to know that I don't think we have a soul, and even if we do, it's only an aspect of our brain.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm sure you will be shocked to know that I don't think we have a soul, and even if we do, it's only an aspect of our brain.

I'm not. I'm pretty sure you don't have one

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I'm not. I'm pretty sure you don't have one

plus, since adder has no sex, he won't be faced with the hard questions about abortion irl

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I don't think we have to at all. I'm more than comfortable with the system outlined in Roe as a rights balancing act. I don't think figuring out what a soul is and when it appears magically is particularly helpful, because some people don't even believe in "a soul" or would be able to define it if they did. I suppose I could say something about response to external stimuli, but really it's not a particularly good benchmark. Worms respond to stimuli.

I've seen women naming the cell mass the day they pee on the stick, (Speaking, of...watch thoroughly unrelated song to this conversation), and I've seen thoroughly ambivilant women walking up to Planned Parenthood hoping to christ they made it inside the eight week window. I spent an HOUR on the phone with a crying "pro-life" woman who'd just gone through a D&C because of some chromosomal abnormality that came back. I've talked to a Catholic woman who, during her sixth delivery, asked that her tubes be tied. Somehow, they weren't or something got screwed up and she called me for answers when she discovered she was pregnant with her seventh.

The consciousness of what's inside matters to me less than that of the women making the decisions. I trust women. It's as simple as that, for me.

2

(BTW, I really, really, really loved this essay by Ta-Nehisi Coates on his wife's labor and how it really solidified his thoughts on choice. It probably won't sway you, but I'd throw it out there regardless. As someone who probably will go through that in the next year--and is quite terrified about it--it resounded very heavily with me.)

You're boyfriend is planning to get pregnant???

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I'm not religious. I abhor religion, probably more than you do.

But I do believe in the soul. I do not believe that we are just a bunch of neurons firing. But if you want to limit your existance to what you can taste, touch, see and feel, feel free. I think that is ignorant and arrogant, but you are free to have whatever beliefs you want.

It's not belief. Again, science has proven my consciousness is solely created by neurons firing in my brain. That's fact. Your "soul"? That's belief.

You're free to believe that you have a soul. And I'm free to read and remind you of facts explaining why you do not.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm sure you will be shocked to know that I don't think we have a soul, and even if we do, it's only an aspect of our brain.

You don't think that. The scientific explanation for your consciousness is proven. It's a discovery based on concrete objective data. It's the condition of things regardless of what you, me, or anyone else thinks.

Soul is an opinion, a guess... faith. The evidence against it is fact.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sgtclub

I'm not religious. I abhor religion, probably more than you do.

But I do believe in the soul. I do not believe that we are just a bunch of neurons firing.

Why? Literally everything about you is neuro-chemical reactions in your brain, however you experience it. You thoughts, your emotions, your values and beliefs are all in there. Why isn't that enough?

But if you want to limit your existance to what you can taste, touch, see and feel, feel free.

I'm not sure where you get this limitation from.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Why? Literally everything about you is neuro-chemical reactions in your brain, however you experience it. You thoughts, your emotions, your values and beliefs are all in there. Why isn't that enough?



I'm not sure where you get this limitation from.

I'm still wondering what senses Club has beyond the usual five. I'm feeling short-changed.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You don't think that. The scientific explanation for your consciousness is proven. It's a discovery based on concrete objective data. It's the condition of things regardless of what you, me, or anyone else thinks.

Soul is an opinion, a guess... faith. The evidence against it is fact.

if we are simple animals chasing our urges how come some of us marry faithfully for a half century and some marry and kill and fuck children? there is something besides basic survival going on, isn't there?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm still wondering what senses Club has beyond the usual five. I'm feeling short-changed.

I also heard something recently about there being more than five too, actually. Can't remember what it was.

Btw, on consciousness, I also remember Radiolab making a bid deal about brain scans of people that showed brain activity that appeared a few seconds before they made the conscious decision to do whatever action they were doing (move a finger I think). I thought they blew the evidence a bit out of proportion, but the notion that your consciousness might be an a tape delay of a second or two is definitely interesting.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

if we are simple animals chasing our urges how come some of us marry faithfully for a half century and some marry and kill and fuck children?

Well, now we are back to challenge facing economics, in my view: differing values and preferences.

there is something besides basic survival going on, isn't there?

Okay, so one more Radiolab, this one more recent, about (according to them) science having trouble explaining an evolutionary mechanism for altruism. And, naturally I can't remember what species they focused on, but the scientists they talked to ended up being able to show the evolutionary advantage.

Okay, that story sucked. But that episode did not.

[sgtclub]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It's not belief. Again, science has proven my consciousness is solely created by neurons firing in my brain. That's fact. Your "soul"? That's belief.

You're free to believe that you have a soul. And I'm free to read and remind you of facts explaining why you do not.

You seem not to understand that science is not all-knowing. It's not your fault, I'm sure you were not a science major, and are thus just talking, like all lawyers do (me included), out of your ass. It's entertaining. Science certainly has not proven there is no soul. That is just silly.