Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I haven't walked a mile in a sniper's shoes (particularly one in a war zone like Iraq, where the enemy wasn't in uniform or easy to distinguish from everyone else; contrast WWII.) So, I'm not prepared to say he is "not good." I have great difficulty imagining what it would be like to sit on a rooftop for days waiting to kill someone, who you are told is an enemy and a killer and a terrorist, etc. Could you do that, effectively, and live with doubt? Maybe doubt would come later -- Kyle didn't get much chance at that -- but then?

I don't disagree with you, although there may be lines even for those from whom we've asked for controlled inhumanity.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Good post.

Do you blame him, or the pool of shit he was swimming in? Or both?

The pool of shit has a lot to do with it. And his training probably included elements designed to do things like break down his ability to empathize. A lot of special ops type training does. My father underwent some army training to de-empathize him to let him deal with deploying nuclear weapons back in the 60s, and it screwed with his head until the day he died.

But sometimes the military gets swimmers for that pool of shit who are already on the edge.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'd say, "unfortunately"

Not if we're going to stop the ISIS invasion planned for next week.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Yes and no. I don't like anyone or anything offering blind obedience or loyalty to any organization or government. But, we all know these people are necessary for certain types of work the rest of us would never do.

Every army, every movement, every anything, needs its true believers.

You need them, yes. But you sure as hell don't trust them. And you watch them like a hawk.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

"Fortunate Son" isn't as resonant today as it was 40 years ago for no good reason. The poor fight our wars, even more than in the past. Yes, there are officers and some rich or middle class kids in the mix. But generally, the military of today draws from people who don't have better options.

Wonk's only off in them being cannon fodder. Most of the fighting today is done by computer.

A lot of them computers seem to blow up under Humvees and fall on soldiers.


BTW, I was having a very, very bad day Friday and I said something to you that was undeserved. I'm sorry.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So what's his point?



And my point is, that's a stupid point.

Translation: when both sides are wrong, you don't pick either one.

The problem with this world is too many fucking people thinking that just because they can that means they should.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

the last time we had this discussion (i mean the board, don't recall if you were here at that moment) I posted stats that showed the US military looks a whole like the population, both racially and economically. In fact over 60% (I want to say 70%) of the enlistees had at least some college coursework completed. it strikes me as the opposite of "no option."

Really? To me "at least some college coursework completed" means "I wanted to go get a degree, but couldn't afford to."

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You want a military hero? My cousin's team rebuilt a power station in Afghanistan three times as part of Civ-Ops there. He and his people worked lightly armed in dangerous situations to build friends and trust in-country. While they were at it, the nearby areas that worked with them also got schools and other public buildings and they help engineering roads - all in situations where they had to expose themselves regularly to do the job effectively. Afghans who helped him were in constant danger, but it was critical that the program be cooperative, and that they be stubborn and rebuild the thing no matter how many times it was destroyed. He speaks very fondly of the Afghans he worked with. And idiots like this undermine efforts like his.

There's a movie I'd like to see.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

There's a movie I'd like to see.

TM

Which raises an interesting question. Why don't we see these movies?

It would be pretty easy to put a money-making patriotic spin on this type of story (heck, it's pretty darn patriotic), wouldn't it?

Instead we get substance-free crap like the Hurt Locker or alleged propaganda like Zero Dark Thirty (I did not see) or whatever this movie is.

How about some propaganda about the good we're actually trying to do?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

Which raises an interesting question. Why don't we see these movies?

It would be pretty easy to put a money-making patriotic spin on this type of story (heck, it's pretty darn patriotic), wouldn't it?

Instead we get substance-free crap like the Hurt Locker or alleged propaganda like Zero Dark Thirty (I did not see) or whatever this movie is.

How about some propaganda about the good we're actually trying to do?

Dumbo Drop. We see the movies we would pay to see.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I agree with you that a lot of people want to have a simple narrative. I'm looking past that, past the movie (that I haven't seen) and at the more fundamental question, of why we should be surprised at what people become when we train them to be killers.

I understand you know vets who are different and more shaded than Kyle supposedly was. So do I. But I do wonder whether the particular job of a sniper is such as to make that much more difficult.

I'm not really arguing with you, just wrestling with this myself. A few years ago I bought a book by a general, called "On Killing" that I think discussed some of these issues. I'll look at it and tell you if I can recommend.

Jobs like this are particularly problematic. A lot of them are dead-ends within the military. You don't really want someone who is trained as an unfeeling automaton of an assassin to command broader troop formations, and generally moving into senior command ranks requires that (or sometimes a pentagon desk job). Some people get pulled out and retrained, but most languish. So besides all the problems around how you've been trained and what you've been trained to do, there are limited rewards for doing these jobs well, so you're going to start getting pretty frustrated with the military itself as you keep doing this.

Then think on this: as independent contractors, after leaving the military, these folks are in demand and get paid well.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Not really. Your default reaction is to almost always criticize US policy, or any militarism.

What I said had nothing to do with policy. It was about the boneheads who glorify Chris Kyle. If that's criticizing militarism, I can live with that. I said that most soldiers don't deserve to be lumped with Chris Kyle.

He's saying, see both sides of the coin, instead of pretending to do so.

What side of what coin am I not seeing? I'm not pretending Chris Kyle was a saint.

It's telling your (and my) knee jerk reaction is to be skeptical of those who think brutishly, who react with force immediately. It's intellectually offensive, particularly to liberals. But we need the brutes who see in black and white sometimes. We both know that.

If you are saying that we need a military that is ready to kill people, I don't disagree. But if you are saying that we need a military full of Chris Kyles, I think you're wrong, and I think your adopting a pose that has nothing to do with what kind of soldiers we need. The guy I've been hanging out with if full of interesting things to say about the military and the recent conflicts, and much of it is critical. I don't get the mindset that the military deserves unthinking support.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by thurgreedmarshall

there's a movie i'd like to see.

Tm

2

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Adder

Which raises an interesting question. Why don't we see these movies?

It would be pretty easy to put a money-making patriotic spin on this type of story (heck, it's pretty darn patriotic), wouldn't it?

Instead we get substance-free crap like the Hurt Locker or alleged propaganda like Zero Dark Thirty (I did not see) or whatever this movie is.

How about some propaganda about the good we're actually trying to do?

For that, you have to go to NPR (where, obviously, the graphic quality suffers from the lack of video) or Frontline, both of whom occasionally run pieces like this.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Jobs like this are particularly problematic. A lot of them are dead-ends within the military. You don't really want someone who is trained as an unfeeling automaton of an assassin to command broader troop formations, and generally moving into senior command ranks requires that (or sometimes a pentagon desk job). Some people get pulled out and retrained, but most languish. So besides all the problems around how you've been trained and what you've been trained to do, there are limited rewards for doing these jobs well, so you're going to start getting pretty frustrated with the military itself as you keep doing this.

Then think on this: as independent contractors, after leaving the military, these folks are in demand and get paid well.

When you're done thinking on that, think about this: they're getting paid to do the same thing. Now who do you think their employers are?