Pepper sprayed for public safety.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

What would a businessman in France say?

He'd say "This if France. We are not like you. We are nothing like you. We assert as a matter of pride that what works here would not work in your culture... Or any nation of your size and structure."

He would then shit his pants when I explained to him that many analysts are suggesting France is much weaker than anyone's admitting, and that after Italy and Portugal get their bailouts and Ireland gets its terms restructured (or the Euro collapses), France's borrowing costs will be next in the crosshairs.

That which cannot be sustained, will not be. TPA health "insurance" of the variant we have is one of these things.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I didn't say you were, you're giving up a lot, not a little, and if you aren't worried about that, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

It's pretty funny to talk about how we need a price mechanism to force everyone to consume less health care and also about how you are concerned that you might have to consume less health care.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

He'd say "This if France. We are not like you. We are nothing like you. We assert as a matter of pride that what works here would not work in your culture... Or any nation of your size and structure."

He would then shit his pants when I explained to him that many analysts are suggesting France is much weaker than anyone's admitting, and that after Italy and Portugal get their bailouts and Ireland gets its terms restructured (or the Euro collapses), France's borrowing costs will be next in the crosshairs.

That which cannot be sustained, will not be. TPA health "insurance" of the variant we have is one of these things.

And you think France will do this restructuring by converting itself away from one of the lowest-cost and highest-quality health care systems in the developed world (much cheaper than the one we've got)?

By the way, if you are right, it will only be because the political failings of the EU, mixed with a healthy does of Austerian stupidity, will keep the ECB from doing what needs to be done. (Although it appears you've edited to delete the bit I'm responding to now).

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

It's pretty funny to talk about how we need a price mechanism to force everyone to consume less health care and also about how you are concerned that you might have to consume less health care.

smh

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

It's pretty funny to talk about how we need a price mechanism to force everyone to consume less health care and also about how you are concerned that you might have to consume less health care.

It's pretty funny to consider that you are either incapable of discerning a point made regarding quality from one about quantity, or a poor enough advocate to think anyone with an above 100 IQ wouldn't immediately spot such an intentional conflation.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It's pretty funny to consider that you are either incapable of discerning a point made regarding quality from one about quantity, or a poor enough advocate to think anyone with an above 100 IQ wouldn't immediately spot such an intentional conflation.

but you're missing the point that, if you define "quality health care" as "providing those services provided by the French health care system, in the way it provides it," the French system is far better than ours.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

And you think France will do this restructuring by converting itself away from one of the lowest-cost and highest-quality health care systems in the developed world (much cheaper than the one we've got)?

By the way, if you are right, it will only be because the political failings of the EU, mixed with a healthy does of Austerian stupidity, will keep the ECB from doing what needs to be done. (Although it appears you've edited to delete the bit I'm responding to now).

1. Our HC system will not persist as is. It can't. Nor will it be a single payer system. Politically, socially, economically, this is impossible. Arguing "We could be like France" is a version of the old, "We could be like Sweden" argument serious people respond to with chuckles. We're bigger, we're more diverse, and the actors in our system have entirely different incentives that have been in place for over a century (during which time France, and the rest of Europe, has gone through serious societal upheaval attendant to wars, surrender, etc.).

2. You're not seeing what's actually going on in Europe. It isn't austerity vs. expansion of central bank balance sheets, or development of eurobonds. It's recognition that even if the ECB prints like mad, it'll never be enough. The debt overhang, private and public, is simply too enormous to unwind within the timetable needed to create sustainable growth.

It's just that simple: You can't print enough fast enough to clear the debt from the balance sheets. Watch Spain in the next 24 months. Their mortgage rules are draconian. People can't run away from that debt, and they have a housing bubble like ours. Their only way out of that is going to be principal write downs - huge ones. That's a crack in the dike I think may lead to the ultimate cure, which is not going to be US/Euro reflation via CB lending, but radical debt repudiation and write down. Eventually, across the developed world, we are going to have to decide: Do we prop investors endlessly?, or Do we put some cash back in the hands of consumers/workers?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

First if all, I'm not as selfish as you. I don't fear giving up a little for others to benefit. And I'm not worried about meaningful degradation of the quality of care.

(1) Elasticity of supply.

(2) Right now, Sebby should be trying to knock people off health coverage to improve his own.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

It's pretty funny to consider that you are either incapable of discerning a point made regarding quality from one about quantity, or a poor enough advocate to think anyone with an above 100 IQ wouldn't immediately spot such an intentional conflation.

But you weren't making a point about quality. You were concerned that a rush of demand from all the poors was going to make it harder for you to get the health care you want.

ETA: It's also weird that you think a conversation here is an exercise in advocacy.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

1. Our HC system will not persist as is. It can't.

Right.

Nor will it be a single payer system.

Not in the near term, no.

2. You're not seeing what's actually going on in Europe. It isn't austerity vs. expansion of central bank balance sheets, or development of eurobonds. It's recognition that even if the ECB prints like mad, it'll never be enough. The debt overhang, private and public, is simply too enormous to unwind within the timetable needed to create sustainable growth.

Given that the ECB isn't printing like mad, we do not know that, and it won't act as lender of last resort (as a central bank should) because it isn't allowed to.

Also, I really don't know what you think "can't print fast enough" means.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

(1) Elasticity of supply.

Right, but I'm not as convinced as Sebby that the folks who currently do not have insurance are going to flood in and massively increase demand once they get it.

(2) Right now, Sebby should be trying to knock people off health coverage to improve his own.

That does seem to be what he's advocating.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

(1) Elasticity of supply.

(2) Right now, Sebby should be trying to knock people off health coverage to improve his own.

1. "Doctor Glut," Unicorns, Yeti... Which of these is unlike the others?

2. It would.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Right, but I'm not as convinced as Sebby that the folks who currently do not have insurance are going to flood in and massively increase demand once they get it.

That does seem to be what he's advocating.

Hell yes they will. "Here's a card. Give it to someone and he'll give you health care. Don't worry about paying. A magical health care faery does that."

Growing the pool won't offset the costs that'll come along with it. That's the nut of the debate. If you think we can create 40 million new users of subsidized HC "insurance" (Read: TPA) and simultaneously shrink costs you are nuts.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Also, I really don't know what you think "can't print fast enough" means.

Where will the ECB get the money it needs? It's going to have to print, and once it does, it'll never be able to print fast enough.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Hell yes they will. "Here's a card. Give it to someone and he'll give you health care. Don't worry about paying. A magical health care faery does that."

You keep forgetting that these are people who currently do not consume much health care. Many of them are young people.

Had such a card to a 22 year old male, and he's say, "whatever" and put it in his wallet.

Sure, others will start consuming the health care that we want them to consume, the preventative stuff, and others will over consume, but that's a cost we have to bear if we want everyone to be covered.

Growing the pool won't offset the costs that'll come along with it.

So you think the health insurance industry is incompetent? Why do you think they will vastly misprice their product?

If you think we can create 40 million new users of subsidized HC "insurance" (Read: TPA) and simultaneously shrink costs you are nuts.

Shrink costs for whom? We probably can shrink public costs, and by reduce the amount of uncompensated care, we might even be able to shrink private costs.

But yeah, 40 million new holders of health care probably means expanded total health care expenditures. That's what a "market solution" necessarily looks like.