Do Lawtalkers Dream of Electric Sheep?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
There's a difference between running for Senate and running for President. I don't think that you can make a valid comparison. I'm no American but I don't think any woman has run for President before.

She ran for President in 2000 and didn't make it to the primaries.

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
I read an article last week that said that Britons (and others, including Canadians) didn't have a problem with a woman leading the country because they were so used to having a female monarch so the image of a female leader was not a big psychological leap. For Americans, it's apparently much harder.

I believe this.

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
And I do think that the Obama equivalent of the Hillary nutcracker doll would never make it to market on the basis that it was too racist. It is not entirely taboo to be sexist, even among the most PC of the PC. It is taboo to be racist. I don't find the comparisons of different "isms" to be particularly productive to be discussed at length, but they can sometimes be telling.

I don't exactly know what the sale of a Hillary nutcracker doll vs. the equivalent for Obama proves. And I certainly agree that this type of comparison is not productive in the slightest. I can sit here and cherry pick problems Obama has to face because he's black that Clinton sure as hell doesn't. The fact that these things do or do not exist does not lead me to believe that it is easier for a black man to run for President in this country than it is for a woman to run for President.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by dtb
That's bullshit. The very fact that people find her so "dislikable" is the very point; the irrational dislike (i.e., hatred for no tangible reason - just "she rubs me the wrong way" or equally vague reasoning) is rooted in sexism. Those sexist attitudes are apparently perfectly acceptable (or at least tolerated) in our society - as the "Never work for a woman" discussion of last week illustrated.

I do believe that the dislike in more cases than not is based in some measure on sexism. Even the hatred of her by those ideologically opposed is off the charts disproportionate to her "crimes".

For those ideologically sympathetic haters-of-Hillary, I think it's the same "Never work for a woman" attitude secretly (or not so secretly) held by many. The low-grade "I don't like her" without anything really tangible other than "I just don't like her". You can dislike her policies, etc. without having such an unjustified visceral dislike.

You can bet that someone saying "I just don't like Barack - he just rubs me the wrong way" would be accused of racism.

I read a very well-written article last week about this very topic. I won't post it here, because the ensuing discussion would be too fucking depressing.

I think a lot of the dislike stems from the fact that she's perceived to be:

a. A carpetbagger (which she is);
b. Not self made; and
c. Immoral and soulless, like her husband.

I agree with your claim that sexism is way more prevalent than we admit. I disagree that Hillary is a victim of sexism. She's a victim of being an uber-sleazy politician in an election cycle where the country is saying "enough."

Obama/McCain/Hillary... One of these things is not like the others, and I think it has a lot more to do with credibility and authenticity then genitalia.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
Thacher was the first. And she caught loads of shit, as you may remember since you are old enough, but mostly for her policies, not for her gender. And she managed to stay Prime Minister for 11 years, so the shit didn't really stick, as it were.

this says she caught some sexist guff http://shakespearessister.blogspot.c...-misogyny.html ironically, the guy who made the worse goof is part of Obama's proposed cabinet.

[dtb]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall

The fact that these things do or do not exist does not lead me to believe that it is easier for a black man to run for President in this country than it is for a woman to run for President.

TM

No one is saying that it's easier one way or the other. What I was talking about was the latent (until recently, rarely mentioned) sexism that is behind so much of the Hillary hatred.

Furthermore, no one is lumping you (personally) in with the HRC-haters. If you like her, you're (by definition) not one of them.

I do understand that there are legitimate reasons not to vote for a candidate other than sexism. But the irrational hatred, I don't see much of a reason beyond unacknowledged sexism (or, at best, a pernicious double standard) to account for it.

Saying you like the other guy better is one thing -- but the random venom spewed about her is just disgusting. (See, e.g., the Penske file.)

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I don't exactly know what the sale of a Hillary nutcracker doll vs. the equivalent for Obama proves. And I certainly agree that this type of comparison is not productive in the slightest. I can sit here and cherry pick problems Obama has to face because he's black that Clinton sure as hell doesn't. The fact that these things do or do not exist does not lead me to believe that it is easier for a black man to run for President in this country than it is for a woman to run for President.

TM

Part of my point was that I think that Americans are more willing to overcome racism than they are sexism, which is unfortunate for women.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
There's a difference between running for Senate and running for President. I don't think that you can make a valid comparison. I'm no American but I don't think any woman has run for President before.

I read an article last week that said that Britons (and others, including Canadians) didn't have a problem with a woman leading the country because they were so used to having a female monarch so the image of a female leader was not a big psychological leap. For Americans, it's apparently much harder.

And I do think that the Obama equivalent of the Hillary nutcracker doll would never make it to market on the basis that it was too racist. It is not entirely taboo to be sexist, even among the most PC of the PC. It is taboo to be racist. I don't find the comparisons of different "isms" to be particularly productive to be discussed at length, but they can sometimes be telling.

As Thurgreed noted earlier, Elizabeth Dole ran for President. Her campaign never got off the ground and she bowed out fairly early, but I don't recall it being chalked up to sexism.

Just the same, I don't think that the dislike for Hilary can be entirely chalked up to sexism, either.

A lot of the hatred for her is simply associative, because of her husband and her role when he was in the White House. It's not sexism, it's simply plain old irrational partisanship.

She also has not done herself any favors by her campaign tactics. The picture of Obama in indigenous garb was traced to her campaign. She piled on when Tim Russert was beating up on Obama about Farrakhan at the last debate. She's just not very gracious and when she's under pressure, it shows.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
She ran for President in 2000 and didn't make it to the primaries.

Your lack of respect for Lenora Fulani and her accomplishments astonishes me.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
She's just not very gracious ...........

damn wonk. you should change this.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by dtb
Duh. It's because she's successful that hate her. There was no chance Elizabeth Dole was going to get anywhere, so why waste the ammo?

What, exactly, is bullshit about pointing out that a utterly racist "doll" of a black presidential candidate would never make it into the airports (as the Hillary nutcracker did)? Where can you get the Obama doll, then? Oh, that's right... there is no such thing widely available on the internet and other retail outlets -- though I can point you to where you can by the HRC version, if you're interested.

When a sexist idiot screamed “Iron my shirt!” at HRC, it was considered amusing; if a racist idiot shouted “Shine my shoes!” at BO, it would’ve inspired hours of airtime and pages of newsprint analyzing our national dishonor. (And rightfully so -- my only point is, where is the outrage when the hate is spewed at her?)

I think it's a bullshit argument. I think that white women have been much more successful in politics in this country than black men. If you want to make a point about the impact of sexism vs. the impact of racism on politics, why don't you compare how easy it is for a black man or a white woman to get elected? Wouldn't that make more sense than talking about the lack of outrage over a nutcracker doll on sale in an airport and what the equivalent would be for the black candidate?

Mind you, I wanted Edwards to win before the primaries even started because he's a white guy from The South (who happens to care about this country's poverty problems). And I would be absolutely ecstatic to have either Hillary or Obama as President.

Originally posted by dtb
I'll bring up whatever I feel like bringing up, thanks.

Well, you sure showed me. But the fact that you don't want to post it leads me to believe you'd rather just bitch and moan. And since we're probably already having the discussion you're so dreading, you might as well post it.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Elizabeth Dole. Not that she was in it for very long, but she did run.

There are clearly problems here (in the US) with sexism. I'm not saying there aren't. I'm just saying that I don't think that Hillary's troubles within the Democratic party right now can be attributed primarily to sexism. Fortunately or unfortunately for her, she is married to former President Bill Clinton. She's taken the good that got her, and now she's taking the bad.

My mother hates Hillary because she says that Hillary sold out women in general by not having the guts to drop Bill when he got caught getting the hummer in the Oval office. She says Hillary's example made women look weak, and it pissed her off.

Since my views are generally not sensible, and there's a chance it's genetic, I don't know how far her view may travel in the general population, but it might explain how some women feel about Hillary.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by taxwonk
As Thurgreed noted earlier, Elizabeth Dole ran for President. Her campaign never got off the ground and she bowed out fairly early, but I don't recall it being chalked up to sexism.

Just the same, I don't think that the dislike for Hilary can be entirely chalked up to sexism, either.

A lot of the hatred for her is simply associative, because of her husband and her role when he was in the White House. It's not sexism, it's simply plain old irrational partisanship.

She also has not done herself any favors by her campaign tactics. The picture of Obama in indigenous garb was traced to her campaign. She piled on when Tim Russert was beating up on Obama about Farrakhan at the last debate. She's just not very gracious and when she's under pressure, it shows.

I think Libby Dole had a southern accent, which would oddly automatically make her seem softer, IMO.

It sounds like the conclusion was pretty widespread that she was just not a viable candidate. There's no reason to get to the sexism stuff in that case -- there were presumably substantive reasons she didn't run. Like, if TM announced in 2010 that he was going to run for president in 2010, I think his campaign would go nowhere because he's not qualified as a candidate, not because he's black. So the whole Libby Dole thing isn't really comparable.

What about Geraldine Ferraro? Did she get the same kind of sexist crap that Hillary has?

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
Part of my point was that I think that Americans are more willing to overcome racism than they are sexism, which is unfortunate for women.

I can't imagine voting for either of the democratic contenders, which has nothing to do with sexism or racism.

I admit freely, however, that in many ways, I am sexist.

Perhaps that's why I find NotBob charmingly old-fashioned.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
damn wonk. you should change this.

What wanker said is exactly, I think, the kind of underlying sexism there is. If a man is the same amount abrupt that she is, it doesn't really count against him. People are more likely to comment on a man's graciousness than his lack of graciousness, but it's the opposite with a woman.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
What about Geraldine Ferraro? Did she get the same kind of sexist crap that Hillary has?

dunno, but she didn't attract the hatred. OTOH, there was never really a chance she'd win either.

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think Libby Dole had a southern accent, which would oddly automatically make her seem softer, IMO.

It sounds like the conclusion was pretty widespread that she was just not a viable candidate. There's no reason to get to the sexism stuff in that case -- there were presumably substantive reasons she didn't run. Like, if TM announced in 2010 that he was going to run for president in 2010, I think his campaign would go nowhere because he's not qualified as a candidate, not because he's black. So the whole Libby Dole thing isn't really comparable.

What about Geraldine Ferraro? Did she get the same kind of sexist crap that Hillary has?

If TM announces he's running for president in 2010, I would certainly question his qualifications. I like his chances in the 2014 summer olympics, though.