Pepper sprayed for public safety.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Exactly, we have a small line of credit ($250K on revenues around $10M) and it is for payroll or bills in a short term crunch. No way a shareholder gets a cent while we owe anything on it.

The last few years have been really frustrating for keeping it going- we were at a big big bank where we were insignificant. It bothered me very much that even though we almost always had more money in the bank than the line covered we had to renew our personal information each year. Then we were woo-ed (ps?) by a smaller private bank, where we would be something more significant. They promised they would not bother us each year to prove we were still good personally for the amount, and they didn't, for a few years. Then they went to yearly proof. Then they went broke and were bought by another private bank, and the demands got more onerous. It isn't that big a hassle really, tax returns and a personal asset form (which I can simply repeat each year, if I can find the last one), but the idea that our spotless payments and money with them isn't enough is a pain.

Are you and Sebby suggesting law firms as a good business model?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

The problem with iconic brands like Wonder Bread is that people think they are still worth something long after they aren't. Not every classic brand is a Coke.

Twinkies and some of the others will get picked up, but cheap. When's the last time anyone here bought a Twinkie? Sure, there are lots of fat people in the US but there are a whole lot more options for getting fat now than there were in the 70s.

Why eat Twinkies when god gave us pork and beer?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But you can often avoid borrowing by getting easy terms on payments to vendors, which is credit by another name.

I'm pretty sure it's name is "credit" too.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Are you and Sebby suggesting law firms as a good business model?

They may or may not be, but they are irrelevant to a consumer products business, particularly a low-margin food business.

That's not to say that Hank's Experience Running A Business doesn't make him the only person qualified to discuss anything and everything about every business on the planet. But still.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The reading on this company is amusing, but I don't know what to make of it. They outsourced their treasury function, and pay $2.1 million for the personal services of a grand total of three people. This from Dealbook. It almost looks like their P/E guys figured out at some point their debt was in trouble and looked to milk the company for fees instead; I'm curious whether the P/E investors get any of the fees or just the guys running the shop.

Really looks like a real bain-job was done on it. Apparently their are multiple bidders for the twinkies franchise, but no one really wants wonder-bread.

Outsourcing is standard in lot of deals. I know you'll be as amazed as I am the outsourcing often goes to the PE or the management company itself. Part of it is simple tax planning - if the PE is going to be looking over every line item on the books, why not just do it in the first place and get a deductibe expense for fees you were charging either way to do work you would have done either way. In some of the PEs the outsourcing is relatively new, and was preplanning for the day when the carried interest becomes the tax equivalent of the stock option and gets taxed as compensation (Sebby, Hank, and Adder: I know that stock options and partnership profits interests are different things; I was conflating solely on the taxable compensation issue, so you needn't rush to correct me).

And then of course, there's what you are talking about, milking the cow dry before you slaughter it. Fans of the Sopranos will recognize the "bust-out" so popular with fictional North Jersey businessmen of Italian extraction.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Email from a gay relative:

"It all makes sense now. Gay marriage and marijuana being legalized at the same time.

Leviticus 20:13: 'if a man lays with another man, he should be stoned.'

We've been interpreting it wrong all these years."

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

The problem with iconic brands like Wonder Bread is that people think they are still worth something long after they aren't. Not every classic brand is a Coke.

Twinkies and some of the others will get picked up, but cheap. When's the last time anyone here bought a Twinkie? Sure, there are lots of fat people in the US but there are a whole lot more options for getting fat now than there were in the 70s.

I haven't had any recently, but when I was younger, a PBJ or a grilled cheese wasn't really worth eating if it was made on anything other than Wonder Bread. More recently, it's the brand that most closely matches the squishy, nutrionally-bereft white bread essential to the real enjoyment of Texas barbecue.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

They may or may not be, but they are irrelevant to a consumer products business, particularly a low-margin food business.

That's not to say that Hank's Experience Running A Business doesn't make him the only person qualified to discuss anything and everything about every business on the planet. But still.

Look, Hank seems to get pleasure out of his lot in life, proving the old adage better to be lucky than smart. But for most of us here, I think we'd like to have built up some equity in a business that wasn't going to dissipate the day we enter our dotage.

I don't know, maybe Hank is proof the asset doesn't devalue quickly at some point, and that there is hope.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by tyrone slothrop

email from a gay relative:

"it all makes sense now. Gay marriage and marijuana being legalized at the same time.

Leviticus 20:13: 'if a man lays with another man, he should be stoned.'

we've been interpreting it wrong all these years."

potw.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Look, Hank seems to get pleasure out of his lot in life, proving the old adage better to be lucky than smart. But for most of us here, I think we'd like to have built up some equity in a business that wasn't going to dissipate the day we enter our dotage.

I don't know, maybe Hank is proof the asset doesn't devalue quickly at some point, and that there is hope.

sebby and someone were talking about how obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees. I thought my anecdote about obtaining a small business loan that required personal guarantees might be relevent to the question of whether obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees, but
i guess I was wrong

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I haven't had any recently, but when I was younger, a PBJ or a grilled cheese wasn't really worth eating if it was made on anything other than Wonder Bread. More recently, it's the brand that most closely matches the squishy, nutrionally-bereft white bread essential to the real enjoyment of Texas barbecue.

I was about to come in to say something about the barbeque, but we also have Mrs. Bairds, so everything will be ok here.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I was about to come in to say something about the barbeque, but we also have Mrs. Bairds, so everything will be ok here.

Mrs. Bairds!! I was going crazy trying to remember what the local brand was. Thanks! I hope they weren't owned by Hostess Brands, too. The number two go-to here in Chicago was Butternut and they are owned by Hostess as well.

One interesting thing will be that this may be the first time many consumers get a real good feel for the degree of concentration of market in the food industry. Hostess's former parent was Interstate Bakeries, which accumulated an incredible number of competitors over the years. I bet if half the brands suddenly disappear off their grocery shelves, people will notice. I wonder if that itself will generate any reaction.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

sebby and someone were talking about how obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees. I thought my anecdote about obtaining a small business loan that required personal guarantees might be relevent to the question of whether obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees, but
i guess I was wrong

Assume always.

I have a nephew who is looking to put together medical marijuana clinics in Mass now that the bill passed. And we always wondered how he'd make a living as an organic farmer.

The boy is not going to be billing hours any time soon.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

sebby and someone were talking about how obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees. I thought my anecdote about obtaining a small business loan that required personal guarantees might be relevent to the question of whether obtaining a small business loan now requires personal guarantees, but
i guess I was wrong

You may want to consider developing a relationship with a small bank in your firm's community. They are about the only place where knowing the customer and knowing that they have your deposits will suffice any more. One of the few positives to come out of the financial clusterfuck is that banks are adopting a "know your customer" mindset. Obviously, the more customers a bank has, the harder it is to know them all on sight.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I haven't had any recently, but when I was younger, a PBJ or a grilled cheese wasn't really worth eating if it was made on anything other than Wonder Bread. More recently, it's the brand that most closely matches the squishy, nutrionally-bereft white bread essential to the real enjoyment of Texas barbecue.

Hmmmm. Then I guess it's just me who doesn't understand the many superfluous slices of white bread that accompanies barbecue. While I am not against them in principal, they seem to just take up space in my belly I would otherwise use for more barbecue.

TM