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Old 09-24-2020, 11:40 AM   #3331
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
No Republican is interested in standing down, or haven't you been paying attention? If you insist on pretending that both sides are the same, it makes things worse. They're going to keep on keeping on until they can't.

eta

Also, I think you're wrong. One of the issues fueling this is abortion rights, which most of the country supports. Conservatives who don't are trying to pack the Court to overturn Roe v. Wade. Most of the country is perfectly fine with Roe v. Wade and does not want it overturned.
I think a lot of Rs would love to stand down. Even John Cornyn expressed misgivings about going forward initially.

Rs can't stand down because the crazy minority of the base with a hard-on for flipping Roe won't let them.

But I'd kind of like Roe to be supplanted by a better decision - an ironclad, unimpeachable decision - granting women full control of their bodies.

The argument in support of abortion should be a negative rights one (which would infuriate the "freedom" fanatics on the right):
Men have full autonomy over their bodies. Nothing in the law precludes them from doing whatever they like to their bodies. Women are entitled to all of the same rights as men. To deny them the right to control all of their bodies, including necessarily their reproductive organs, renders them less than full humans relative to men.
Constitutionally, men and women must be treated equally. A prohibition on abortion effectively renders women 3/5 human.

Now, of course, that leads to the argument that the fetus has rights at some point. That's an entirely different conversation, however. Once you start balancing the rights of the fetus and the woman, you're into an argument of degree. The argument that women do not have a right to an abortion at all is forever lost by the Right.
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:41 PM   #3332
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I think a lot of Rs would love to stand down. Even John Cornyn expressed misgivings about going forward initially.

Rs can't stand down because the crazy minority of the base with a hard-on for flipping Roe won't let them.

But I'd kind of like Roe to be supplanted by a better decision - an ironclad, unimpeachable decision - granting women full control of their bodies.

The argument in support of abortion should be a negative rights one (which would infuriate the "freedom" fanatics on the right):
Men have full autonomy over their bodies. Nothing in the law precludes them from doing whatever they like to their bodies. Women are entitled to all of the same rights as men. To deny them the right to control all of their bodies, including necessarily their reproductive organs, renders them less than full humans relative to men.
Constitutionally, men and women must be treated equally. A prohibition on abortion effectively renders women 3/5 human.

Now, of course, that leads to the argument that the fetus has rights at some point. That's an entirely different conversation, however. Once you start balancing the rights of the fetus and the woman, you're into an argument of degree. The argument that women do not have a right to an abortion at all is forever lost by the Right.
ehh, once we get our dictator the senate won't matter anymore anyways.....
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:17 PM   #3333
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
What's the difference with an 11 member court? 5 conservatives, plus Roberts who occasionally surprises, and 5 liberals. That'd just be restoring things to a one judge conservative advantage, as it is today.
It would be just like Democrats to break norms to pack the Court in order to restore it to a narrow Republican majority.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:20 PM   #3334
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I think a lot of Rs would love to stand down. Even John Cornyn expressed misgivings about going forward initially.

Rs can't stand down because the crazy minority of the base with a hard-on for flipping Roe won't let them.
Yes, exactly. This is not (just) a moral failing on the part of individual politicians like Lindsey Graham, who is a joke.

Quote:
But I'd kind of like Roe to be supplanted by a better decision - an ironclad, unimpeachable decision - granting women full control of their bodies.
Occasionally you lift the mask and we can see that you really do have political preferences that are not just naked self-interest.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:12 PM   #3335
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

And the 20 year old daughter has tested positive for Covid. Stupid 2020.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:59 PM   #3336
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post

Constitutionally, men and women must be treated equally. A prohibition on abortion effectively renders women 3/5 human.

Now, of course, that leads to the argument that the fetus has rights at some point. That's an entirely different conversation, however. Once you start balancing the rights of the fetus and the woman, you're into an argument of degree. The argument that women do not have a right to an abortion at all is forever lost by the Right.
As I understand it, the states have done everything that needs to be done to ratify the ERA. The ball is in the Senate's court. If the Senate is flipped, then its likely the ERA will (after however many years of litigation on the issue) become part of the constitution. Which will hopefully change the Roe analysis considerably.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:00 PM   #3337
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

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And the 20 year old daughter has tested positive for Covid. Stupid 2020.
Shit. I hope her symptoms are mild and she recovers soon.

I'm really sorry Ollie.
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Old 09-25-2020, 11:16 AM   #3338
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

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And the 20 year old daughter has tested positive for Covid. Stupid 2020.
How is she doing? My 19 y.o. son has been living at a frat house and working at a grocery store. I can't believe he hasn't had it yet.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:50 PM   #3339
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

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Shit. I hope her symptoms are mild and she recovers soon.

I'm really sorry Ollie.
Thanks, RT. So far mild; slight fever, cold symptoms, and really tired. One of her roommates is pretty sick, but her family lives in the area so she's gone home. Seems to be spreading fast through the apartment complex, which is across the street from campus and dominated by college kids.
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:47 PM   #3340
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Occasionally you lift the mask and we can see that you really do have political preferences that are not just naked self-interest.
I don't know why you'd think otherwise. It's only since Trump has been elected and I've had the temerity to defend him ocassionally and the gall to question the tenets of woke orthodoxy that I've been characterized as acting entirely in self interest.

I'm absolutist terms of liberty and equality for all. The position I offered about Roe and abortion and women's right is one I've held forever.

Where we differ is I advocate for negative rights. I see fiddling with society by enforcing new positive rights as a road to hell. And I am deemed a selfish "enemy" of wokeism because I am inadequately supportive of it or I think the freakout about Trump being a racist is overblown. The truth is I think it's all a moral panic - silly, irrational bullshit. BLM makes some good points, but this new leftist religion of the progressives, including "critical" theories, is nonsense. And the Left's use of of it to enforce purity is a form of authoritarianism.

I don't like being told that if I reject some facile argument that to defend Trump here and there is to suborn the worst forms of bigotry, and that to make fun of or criticize wokeism and anti-racism as screwy pseudointellectual tripe and argue that, faced with voting for silly left wing nuts, I'll choose not to vote at all, or vote in my self interest, makes me exclusively self-interested.

I think your side's ideas largely suck. So do those of the other side. So how the hell am I supposed to vote?
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:53 PM   #3341
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

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And the 20 year old daughter has tested positive for Covid. Stupid 2020.
shit. Hope she recovers quickly and fully.
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:56 PM   #3342
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Re: We. Are. Fucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I don't know why you'd think otherwise. It's only since Trump has been elected and I've had the temerity to defend him ocassionally and the gall to question the tenets of woke orthodoxy that I've been characterized as acting entirely in self interest.

I'm absolutist terms of liberty and equality for all. The position I offered about Roe and abortion and women's right is one I've held forever.

Where we differ is I advocate for negative rights. I see fiddling with society by enforcing new positive rights is a road to hell. And I am deemed a selfish "enemy" of wokeism because I am inadequately supportive of it. The truth is I think it's silly bullshit. BLM makes some good points, but this new leftist religion of the progressives, including "critical" theories, is nonsense.

And when I see nonsense like that, I choose to vote my pocketbook.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:36 PM   #3343
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Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm absolutist terms of liberty and equality for all. The position I offered about Roe and abortion and women's right is one I've held forever.

...

I think your side's ideas largely suck. So do those of the other side. So how the hell am I supposed to vote?
Just vote for the party that aligns with the position you've held forever about abortion and women's rights. Pretty clear which party is better there.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:09 PM   #3344
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Re: Objectively intelligent.

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And the 20 year old daughter has tested positive for Covid. Stupid 2020.
Hope she recovers well. Any inability to breathe -- get to ER but the medical community is way further ahead than it was in March.
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Old 09-25-2020, 06:46 PM   #3345
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Re: Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Just vote for the party that aligns with the position you've held forever about abortion and women's rights. Pretty clear which party is better there.
Jill Stein's party does too. Probably Johnson's (or whatever his name was) too. Need to be more specific here.
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