Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Not let it go? I'm not even going to bother to respond to you.

Good. When you engage in sophistry and try to change the issue from “How much of this HC for undocumenteds will be subsidized?” (Nearly all of it) to “But... Undocumenteds do pay taxes,” you’d do well to not reply.

I did not state that illegals paid no taxes. That’s your straw man, to avoid discussing how much of their coverage will be subsidized. The Post saw through that, which should tell you something about how wise it is to attempt that redirection.

On average, undocumented immigrants do not earn anywhere near enough to pay for any significant potion of health insurance. Don’t like that fact? Take it up with Vox, which cited @ $20 bill paid by over 11 mil undocumented taxpayers (state and fed). Show me how people paying taxes that small can afford to pay for anything close to even half of health insurance.

Oh, wait, are you arguing that $ 20 bil should be credited entirely to payment for this new health insurance for them? No, because that’s theoretically taking that money away from the states and feds and directing it all to this new HC insurance. That’s just a different kind of subsidy.

This new HC for undocumenteds is heavily to nearly entirely subsidized. They simply don’t earn enough to significantly contribute.

I have no issue with that subsidy, by the way, as undocumenteds tend to be poor and spend all of their money, and I’d rather see it go into the broader economy than funneled disproportionately into health insurance. What I do have a problem with is you bullshitting.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

What I do have a problem with is you bullshitting.

Submitted without comment.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Good. When you engage in sophistry and try to change the issue from “How much of this HC for undocumenteds will be subsidized?” (Nearly all of it) to “But... Undocumenteds do pay taxes,” you’d do well to not reply.

If you pay taxes, then your government benefits are *not* entirely subsidized. You have bought into a conservative trope that immigrants are not members of our community and do not deserve to get anything, which is why it seems obvious to you that they would be almost entirely subsidized. Live where I do for a little while and you might see it differently. I see lots of immigrants, with different legal statuses, who are working and contributing and part of the community, and who are not "almost entirely subsidized." There's no sophistry here -- you and I apparently have different views about immigrants.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you pay taxes, then your government benefits are *not* entirely subsidized. You have bought into a conservative trope that immigrants are not members of our community and do not deserve to get anything, which is why it seems obvious to you that they would be almost entirely subsidized. Live where I do for a little while and you might see it differently. I see lots of immigrants, with different legal statuses, who are working and contributing and part of the community, and who are not "almost entirely subsidized." There's no sophistry here -- you and I apparently have different views about immigrants.

My suspicion is that his part of the country could use more immigrants to kick-start the economy. Lazy assed people there seem to do nothing but go to bad cocktail parties.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

My suspicion is that his part of the country could use more immigrants to kick-start the economy. Lazy assed people there seem to do nothing but go to bad cocktail parties.

I actually agree with you. Entitled whites are the worst of the worst. We should throw the whiners out of the country and replace them entirely with immigrants.

If you’re calling me an entitled white, son, I left your jackass industry to try a few different businesses. Laziness? I wish I had it. My problem is finding what you do so impossibly dull and societally damaging I couldn’t stand it anymore.

The very best thing anyone can do for our economy is innovate full of shit lawyers who create nothing but obstacles and paperwork (we all do, more so than anything else we do) out of existence.

We’re economic poison. As Walter White would say, “we are the trouble.” We have zero moral credibility to criticize anyone.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

If you’re calling me an entitled white, son, I left your jackass industry to try a few different businesses. Laziness? I wish I had it. My problem is finding what you do so impossibly dull and societally damaging I couldn’t stand it anymore.

actually that one was not directed at you but the broad old industrial/rural mid-Atlantic, including my parts of upstate. I understand you're used to me throwing shit at you, so it's a reasonable mistake to make

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

actually that one was not directed at you but the broad old industrial/rural mid-Atlantic, including my parts of upstate. I understand you're used to me throwing shit at you, so it's a reasonable mistake to make

Fair enough. I agree that the mid Atlantic is sclerotic. On one hand, there are tons of entrenched locals fighting against innovation and change. (An immigrant client of mine is getting fucked on a license issue by white geriatrics right now.) On the lower end, we’re polluted with entitled and lazy white workers enabled and empowered by Trump’s bullshit.

They’re often horrible workers. Drug issues, miserable attitudes, looking for any angle to grab disability or workers’ comp.

The mid Atlantic desperately needs immigrants. It needs youth. It needs to also become business friendly. Land use, permitting, etc. are used by local business interests and the politicians they buy to protect themselves. This problem is exacerbated in Commonwealths, where every County is like giant feudal estate. And unsurprisingly, where so many layers of crooked bureaucracy persist, lawyers cancer the system, extracting their little rents at every opportunity.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you pay taxes, then your government benefits are *not* entirely subsidized. You have bought into a conservative trope that immigrants are not members of our community and do not deserve to get anything, which is why it seems obvious to you that they would be almost entirely subsidized. Live where I do for a little while and you might see it differently. I see lots of immigrants, with different legal statuses, who are working and contributing and part of the community, and who are not "almost entirely subsidized." There's no sophistry here -- you and I apparently have different views about immigrants.

More bullshit.

Do you see me using the term “entirely”? That’s your latest strawman.

As to the rest of your quasi ad hominem, trying to change the argument from one where I explain to you that you are full of shit when you say that illegal immigrants in aggregate would not be heavily subsidized under any govt hc insurance plan for them to one about me drinking conservative kool aid is not going to save your ass here.

Why? Because math. $20 billion paid by 11 million undocumenteds. That’s around $2k a piece these people pay in state and fed taxes. That is not a demographic that can pay for any substantial amount of hc insurance. Your anecdotes describe outliers.

Stop.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Because it’s not a lie. It’ll be almost entirely subsidized.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

More bullshit.

Do you see me using the term “entirely”? That’s your latest strawman.

Sophistry indeed.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sophistry indeed.

Almost is a word in the English language you might want to look up.

In the context of this discussion, “almost entirely” is a perfect adjective to convey a scenario where all but outliers of a certain demographic share a common characteristic.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Almost is a word in the English language you might want to look up.

In the context of this discussion, “almost entirely” is a perfect adjective to convey a scenario where all but outliers of a certain demographic share a common characteristic.

Listen, Sebby, absolutely nothing in this conversation turns on the difference between "almost entirely" and "entirely." Nothing. You are arguing, perhaps without realizing it, that the immigrants we are talking about do not deserve healthcare because they don't pay for it, "almost entirely." That's bullshit. Maybe you don't really believe that immigrants should be treated as an underclass, but are advising Democrats to do it out of political expediency. If that's not what you really think, say so, instead of relying on debating tricks like complaints about sophistry. You make it very difficult to tell what you really do believe, and when I quote you, you bitch and moan about it. Stand for something.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Ty's last gasp.

You've more strawmen than all historical stage productions of The Wizard of Oz combined.

Let's go line by line.

Listen, Sebby, absolutely nothing in this conversation turns on the difference between "almost entirely" and "entirely." Nothing.

Actually, no. That's entirely what tripped you up in this conversation. Which is why you're reframing the conversation. Which is what you do when you're confronted with being incorrect about something.

You are arguing, perhaps without realizing it, that the immigrants we are talking about do not deserve healthcare because they don't pay for it, "almost entirely."

This is a new low, even for you. Here you are not only using a strawman, but attempting to preempt observation of that fact by telling me what I'm subconsciously arguing.

I'm not arguing that point at all. You are trying to say that I am arguing that point so you can counter it because you've failed to counter the point I actually made.

As I argue below, and previously (which you conveniently ignore), undocumenteds do deserve health care.

Maybe you don't really believe that immigrants should be treated as an underclass, but are advising Democrats to do it out of political expediency.

This is unclear, but I think you're saying I think immigrants are an underclass. I don't think they're an underclass at all. I think they're underpaid. That was my point. My argument for subsidizing their care is primarily economic. I also think it's inhumane to turn away people in need of acute care.

In terms of spending power as a demographic, undocuments are, in purely economic terms, an underclass. They are paid far less in most instances (yours, mine, and GGG's outlier anecdotes aside). On average, eleven million of them each pay $2k in state and fed taxes. Given there are outliers paying far more than that, we could postulate that there's a hockey stick distribution, and 80% of undocuments are in dire economic circumstances, paying far less than $2k per year, while a small fraction of fortunate ones pay far more than that.

If that's not what you really think, say so, instead of relying on debating tricks like complaints about sophistry.

You were engaged in sophistry. Your argument that I'd used the term "entirely" where I used "almost entirely" can only avoid being labeled as such by asserting it lacks requisite cleverness to qualify as sophistry.

Cornered, you do this sort of thing every. single. time.

You make it very difficult to tell what you really do believe, and when I quote you, you bitch and moan about it. Stand for something.

I made what I stand for abundantly clear: Calling out politicians for bullshitting, in the vain hope they'll stop doing so if sufficiently flagged for it.

The Ds in that debate know damn well that the HC plan for undocumenteds they're behind, in whatever form it takes, will be overwhelmingly paid for by govt subsidy. That's just simple math. And yet they offer the canard that through magical accounting, these undocumenteds will somehow be able to pay for something that most documented immigrants and citizens cannot afford. This offends basic math and logic. It's bullshit. And the Post was right to look right through it and call it what it was - a massive subsidy.

And why not call it a subsidy? What's wrong with arguing that undocumenteds contribute to keeping the costs of numerous goods and services low, so subsidizing medical care for them is not a "giveaway" of any kind? Why do you have to lie? Why do you have to hew to the fiction that most undocumented immigrants can afford to pay for HC insurance? You're the one standing facts on their ear here.

I'm standing for elimination of bullshit. And I don't need to stand for anything more. The problems at hand are incredibly complex, and my views shift on them all the time. I don't have a fix and I'm not sure one is politically possible, but I do believe that to find out whether one may be possible, the necessary first step is destroying "narratives" and "bullshit." And as I noted earlier, this applies to the Rs as well, who are lying through their teeth about immigration in endless regards.

(I think you want me to stand for something else. This need you have for people to pick sides as you'd desire people to align, or be stereotyped, is a pathology in your thinking we can address elsewhere.)