Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Dude, this happens all the time. That's the point of the book. Whenever we talk about an experience, white people find a way to say that the person probably isn't racist.

A senior associate walked into my office today and told me that when he was in the Boston office, he was holding the door for a secretary. They had a friendly exchange and the secretary asked him if he was there to fix the printers. Now, in my mind, there is no way around the racism behind that question. But I guarantee if I tell that story to 80% of the people at this firm, they will find a way to not make it racist. We stop telling you this shit because you don't fucking hear us. We are too fragile. You seize on the term "micro" in "micro-aggressions," and dismiss it. You label it PC. You say, "Why is everything always about race with you?" Etc. That shit is exhausting. This is what the book is talking about. You don't need a handy fucking diary in the life of a black person. You need to listen and be open to understanding what we're saying.

And I'll tell you this: Adder is.

TM

I'm not arguing against micro-aggressions. I actually have adjusted my thinking on them. Diangelo made a solid case.

BUT, the fact that you are properly exhausted every time a white person denies racism does not mean:

1. Every critique of a foreign products is racist toward the country it came from; or,
2. Where racism is not present, the allegation of it should nevertheless stand without denial.

Adder said I was racist toward the Chinese. And so were the people who commented on Chinese products being built badly.

Untrue. I based none of my dislike for Chinese products on feelings toward Chinese people. I base my dislike on have had bad experiences with the products. Period.

Adder is throwing accusations and then hiding behind the argument, "If you disagree with me, you're proving fragility." Nonsense. I would totally agree with you that the instance you cited above regarding the copier repair is racist. However, the instance in which I said Chinese products are not well made? I assure you, it is not based on racism. Should I just stand quiet and let Adder spout off? Illogic is bad. It is always bad. And he's got it coming out of his ears here.

I am understanding as to what you are saying. That was my point. You are not Adder. Adder is making abstract points that are logically indefensible. You are making logical points dovetailing with the logic of Diangelo.

ETA: Under Adder's crazy extension, criticisms of Russia based on election interference, despite being valid, are also, strangely, racist toward Russians.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

While it's fun to talk about Adder like he's not here, I'm going to make this the last post about it from me.

I think Adder is in a place where many people of color have found themselves. When you constantly see people of color being treated differently, it's hard not to see. If I were Adder, I would have pointed out that you may not be seeing what others can from their perspective. I'm not sure I think that stating that the Chinese make crap is based on race and not the fact that government oversight and regulation for businesses isn't what ours is. And I'm not sure the focus on the negatives (hell, lead-laced baby formula is what sticks out for me) means you're racist. But here's the difference:

When Adder said that you tend to focus on the worst stuff when it comes to Chinese goods when they make amazing things as well, I didn't automatically throw up my hands, walk away from the conversation and call him a naïf. I thought about the way I was thinking about it and tried to reconcile my thought process with the possibility that I was overgeneralizing. You should do that to. Being forced to go through that thought process shouldn't elicit immediate disdain and dismissal.

I agree I was overgeneralizing. He could have said that. He didn't.

The NYT has devoted a large amount of resources this past week to showing how race permeates everything. Adder talks about how it permeates everything and actually applies that thought process to our conversations. The point I'm making is that as we all learn more about the extent of the impact of race in everything we have done and continue to do, Adder isn't as out there as you make him to be.

I agree that thinking about how race is omnipresent is the best course.

Cool enough. But there's no such thing as a fiscal conservative/social liberal. The support required to implement social policies requires resources. So anyone who calls themselves that is surely full of shit.

There are a lot of people who call themselves that. This person wasn't full of shit. If he were full of shit, he'd have dismissed 1619 out of hand, as many conservatives are doing.

I think you would actually do better to discuss this stuff instead of throwing up your hands and talking about how people like him who focus on this stuff and talk about it a lot are the reason why we have a racist moron in office. Because that's absolutely fucking ridiculous.

I am open to discussing the stuff. I think a discussion of the myriad ways race impacts our society is worthwhile. It's also fascinating. Bluntly asserting "that's racist" to everything, however, is dumb. I don't like dumb.

Talking requires thinking. Developing a doctrinaire and purist approach to this topic, or any other, as Adder has, precludes useful conversation.

TM[/QUOTE]

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

My comments about Chinese products are not racist.

As I said previously, if you've thought carefully about it and come to that conclusion, great.

I cannot speak to whether other complaints about Chinese products are born of racism.

When we know a thing is ubiquitous, it is not a stretch to conclude that it is likely a factor commonly held beliefs.

Do you think the fallowing can be said without involving any racism: "Chinese appliances suck. They break easily and aren't well built."

Okay, back to a weird diversion that would probably only come from me: are you sure you've ever owned a Chinese-built appliance? Because unless you're buying Haier-branded appliances (or a few other even smaller brands), you're not.

As to whether it is possible to make that statement without any racist influence, yeah, probably.

I'm not doing this because I'm fragile.

You're doing the very thing described at length in the book but no, you're different.

Dude, if someone says, "hey, maybe that's racist" the thing to do is stop and think about it. After having done so, you might decide that your don't really think it is but maybe you'll find a different way to express the thought to avoid that impression. Or maybe you'll decide it's fine.

When you instead insist at length that it isn't and that the person who said it is attacking you, you're doing the White Fragility thing.

You need to stop seeing racism in every corner and shouting it.

Nope. We white people need to be shouting about it a lot more.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Adder is throwing accusations

You need to stop seeing it as an accusation. Diangelo acted in a racist way to the web designer. Diangelo is not a racist.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

Okay, back to a weird diversion that would probably only come from me: are you sure you've ever owned a Chinese-built appliance?

Macs? Or are they not an appliance?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

When we know a thing is ubiquitous, it is not a stretch to conclude that it is likely a factor commonly held beliefs.



Okay, back to a weird diversion that would probably only come from me: are you sure you've ever owned a Chinese-built appliance? Because unless you're buying Haier-branded appliances (or a few other even smaller brands), you're not.

As to whether it is possible to make that statement without any racist influence, yeah, probably.



You're doing the very thing described at length in the book but no, you're different.

Dude, if someone says, "hey, maybe that's racist" the thing to do is stop and think about it. After having done so, you might decide that your don't really think it is but maybe you'll find a different way to express the thought to avoid that impression. Or maybe you'll decide it's fine.

When you instead insist at length that it isn't and that the person who said it is attacking you, you're doing the White Fragility thing.



Nope. We white people need to be shouting about it a lot more.

1. Correlation and causation? Synonyms?

2. If a thing says made in China, I’m inclined to give it benefit of doubt. This is w/o considering how man components of things w/o that label were made there. As to comments of others cited? I can’t speak for them.

3. Then why immediately assert that you know the cause?

4. Here’s an abuse of Diangelo’s argument. By this illogic , you may assert racism is the cause (which you’ll walk back to “one of many possible causes” when cornered) and any disagreement is immediately invalidated. This where you and TM part ways. He’s arguing that it’s exhausting when white people try to find any cause but racism. You’re saying you are free to assert a cause of something and any disagreement with it is invalid. That’s absurd as applied to ANY subject.

5. You didn’t say “maybe.”

6. I did think about it. I thought, “Do I dislike the Chinese? Has some view of them made me xenophobic?” I realized no, it hadn’t. But I do admit that anger about their products caused me to overgeneralize. I should have excluded certain of their electronics along with some suits. Not all of their stuff is cheaply made.

7. I’m prone to view any illogical argument as an attack. It’s irritating. I don’t care what anyone says to or about me or any subject we’re discussing, but dumb and naive drive me nuts.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Dude, this happens all the time. That's the point of the book. Whenever we talk about an experience, white people find a way to say that the person probably isn't racist.

A senior associate walked into my office today and told me that when he was in the Boston office, he was holding the door for a secretary. They had a friendly exchange and the secretary asked him if he was there to fix the printers. Now, in my mind, there is no way around the racism behind that question. But I guarantee if I tell that story to 80% of the people at this firm, they will find a way to not make it racist. We stop telling you this shit because you don't fucking hear us. We are too fragile. You seize on the term "micro" in "micro-aggressions," and dismiss it. You label it PC. You say, "Why is everything always about race with you?" Etc. That shit is exhausting. This is what the book is talking about. You don't need a handy fucking diary in the life of a black person. You need to listen and be open to understanding what we're saying.

And I'll tell you this: Adder is.

TM

The really hard part when this stuff happens is understanding what to do about it. 90% of the time, if I was talking to the associate who had that story, they'd ask me not to bring the complaint any farther because they're afraid they'll get flak for saying anything. And you can't bring it anonymously because figuring out which minority is involved is usually pretty easy to figure out, or at least narrow down to two (which means they'll both get flak).

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

4. Here’s an abuse of Diangelo’s argument. By this illogic , you may assert racism is the cause (which you’ll walk back to “one of many possible causes” when cornered) and any disagreement is immediately invalidated. This where you and TM part ways. He’s arguing that it’s exhausting when white people try to find any cause but racism. You’re saying you are free to assert a cause of something and any disagreement with it is invalid. That’s absurd as applied to ANY subject.

I think you are mashing up some shit right here- you effectively implied everything from China is shite- trust me- I spent a few years working for the most popular toy in the world- China makes a lot of shite- but it also makes some solid stuff. So to say "all Chinese appliances are shite" is an over generalization that treats the Chinese as a monolithic group that only makes shite- racism is assuming X1 does Y because X2 does Y, isn't it?

I'm not sure how DiAngelo got dragged into this because it seems a more obviously clear issue than what she wrote about?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I think you are mashing up some shit right here- you effectively implied everything from China is shite- trust me- I spent a few years working for the most popular toy in the world- China makes a lot of shite- but it also makes some solid stuff. So to say "all Chinese appliances are shite" is an over generalization that treats the Chinese as a monolithic group that only makes shite- racism is assuming X1 does Y because X2 does Y, isn't it?

I'm not sure how DiAngelo got dragged into this because it seems a more obviously clear issue than what she wrote about?

You can extend my comment to generalize about China as an economy and a governmental system. That’s fair.

But not the Chinese as a “race” or “group.”

I mean, you can do it, but it’s dumb. If we’re going to have honest conversation and discuss where bigotry is present, that necessarily involves telling people who see it where it clearly isn’t they’re being dumb. Adder is being dumb.

However, I should not so overgeneralize in the future. If I’m going to badmouth a manufacturer on certain products, I should also note where it does a decent job.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Dude, this happens all the time. That's the point of the book. Whenever we talk about an experience, white people find a way to say that the person probably isn't racist.

A senior associate walked into my office today and told me that when he was in the Boston office, he was holding the door for a secretary. They had a friendly exchange and the secretary asked him if he was there to fix the printers. Now, in my mind, there is no way around the racism behind that question. But I guarantee if I tell that story to 80% of the people at this firm, they will find a way to not make it racist. We stop telling you this shit because you don't fucking hear us. We are too fragile. You seize on the term "micro" in "micro-aggressions," and dismiss it. You label it PC. You say, "Why is everything always about race with you?" Etc. That shit is exhausting. This is what the book is talking about. You don't need a handy fucking diary in the life of a black person. You need to listen and be open to understanding what we're saying.

And I'll tell you this: Adder is.

TM

How was he dressed? If I see anyone in a black polo and khakis I assume he/she is there to fix the printers or do some IT type work. I probably should not assume this but my brain does it before I can stop it.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

He’s arguing that it’s exhausting when white people try to find any cause but racism.

Dude, if you can't admit that the HVAC guy and the guy at Best Buy are likely walking around with some anti-Chinese stereotypes, I don't know what to tell you. But you're still going on about it.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Macs? Or are they not an appliance?

I took him to be talking about household appliances, not consumer electronics, but don't know for sure.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Adder

I took him to be talking about household appliances, not consumer electronics, but don't know for sure.

I guess I was wondering what you meant when you said appliances aren’t really made there. It sounded like you knew something I didn’t know.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

How was he dressed? If I see anyone in a black polo and khakis I assume he/she is there to fix the printers or do some IT type work. I probably should not assume this but my brain does it before I can stop it.

Not to state the obvious but a senior associate from the NY office had reason to be in the Boston office. Close to 100% he was dressed according to whatever is dress code for attorneys at T’s firm?

Am I whiffing?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Not to state the obvious but a senior associate from the NY office had reason to be in the Boston office. Close to 100% he was dressed according to whatever is dress code for attorneys at T’s firm?

Am I whiffing?

It's 2019 - do big law firms still have dress codes? I see plenty of lawyers showing up for depositions in polo shirts nowadays in the summer.

Anyway, I'd be surprised if the comment was made to anyone wearing a suit.