I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

He'd be better served to become someone's chief of staff. Unfortunately, he's too in love with the cameras.

TM

Great article/review of the movie from David Edelstein in the current New York Magazine. I had forgotten how well Weiner was doing in the NYC mayoral polls until part two of the scandal hit him.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM

Or, as our President put it in his commencement speech at Howard:

And democracy requires compromise, even when you are 100 percent right. This is hard to explain sometimes. You can be completely right, and you still are going to have to engage folks who disagree with you. If you think that the only way forward is to be as uncompromising as possible, you will feel good about yourself, you will enjoy a certain moral purity, but you’re not going to get what you want. And if you don’t get what you want long enough, you will eventually think the whole system is rigged. And that will lead to more cynicism, and less participation, and a downward spiral of more injustice and more anger and more despair. And that's never been the source of our progress. That's how we cheat ourselves of progress.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...nscript-222931

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.

Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.

Sometimes funk is not smooth or evolved or pretty. It's raw and dirty. Which is why it's called funk. Your Daily Dose is James Polk & the Brothers. Just Plain Funk. And it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhe9...166DE8BC1553E7

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Sometimes funk is not smooth or evolved or pretty. It's raw and dirty. Which is why it's called funk.

NWTAF? I know to count my pussy. Ain't needing you to mansplain shit. I'm from the D bitch. here's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMTdR0ifnQ

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:

• for people to understand that those advantages exist
• for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
• for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
• for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
• for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
• similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM

My response to Adder was ironic. And it was precisely got me thinking about this. And what I do every day in my life to recognize when I am thinking in a way that I have been programmed to think and the efforts I make to catch myself in that.

And it got me to question whether or not I am really doing enough. And. more important, it got me thinking about what I can do to do more. Which is what I thought had informed this post. Clearly, I have a way to go.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM

Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Really? Savannah was the most evolved place I ever spent time in. Of course I was mostly only in the historic district. But with one exception I saw only peace and love in the Sav.

It's peace and love, on the surface. But I've discovered that all too often, peace is based on an implicit understanding that people know their place. I try to fight against that, but it's pretty hard-wired into too many people who grew up prior to the Civil Rights era, and they still aren't buying it.

I have yet to find evidence that they should in far more cases than I'm comfortable with.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.

And what's the sea change you seek? Not long after I was born, John Lewis' head was being introduced to a cop's club in Selma; today he is being bashed as the "establishment" by a bunch of comfortable 40-something Bernie-Bros in the name of "Berning it down".

Put me down as being on John Lewis' side, whether you view him as establishment or revolutionary.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

My response to Adder was ironic. And it was precisely got me thinking about this. And what I do every day in my life to recognize when I am thinking in a way that I have been programmed to think and the efforts I make to catch myself in that.

And it got me to question whether or not I am really doing enough. And. more important, it got me thinking about what I can do to do more. Which is what I thought had informed this post. Clearly, I have a way to go.

Nah. You're no Tim Wise, but you'll do, my friend.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Call me a cynic. I have become convinced that sea change requires chaos. We're nickel and diming our way into the toilet.

I just don't think that's true. Your view of the destruction of the financial system seems to be focused solely on what would happen at the top. Think of all the wealth destroyed by individual savers, 401ks, and pension funds. Think of the jobs lost and how long it would take to get those jobs back. Think about the swath of new poor in this country created by that chaos and how few resources would be available to help. Think about how this country would turn completely inward and the resulting suffering overseas.

Now think about the traction Bernie got this last election and think about how open people will be to his (or a similar) message next time. But that message can't just be aspirational. It has to be practical. That's what Bernie is missing. Next time, maybe he (or whoever) won't be.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

NWTAF? I know to count my pussy. Ain't needing you to mansplain shit. I'm from the D bitch. here's this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUMTdR0ifnQ

O.K., D-Dwag, here's some more Funkadelic for you. Standing on the Verge of Getting It On, the title track of the album for which George Clinton is credited with "Supreme Maggot Minister of Funkadelia; Vocals, Maniac Froth and Spit; Behaviour Illegal In Several States." Does the song start with a sped up voice repeatedly stating: "Hey baby you can be my dog and I can be your tree and you can pee on me"? Yes. Yes it does. Your Daily Dose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmJqDfdGmV4

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

And what's the sea change you seek? Not long after I was born, John Lewis' head was being introduced to a cop's club in Selma; today he is being bashed as the "establishment" by a bunch of comfortable 40-something Bernie-Bros in the name of "Berning it down".

Put me down as being on John Lewis' side, whether you view him as establishment or revolutionary.

I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.

I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.

I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.

I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.

I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.

I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.

Some of this sounds like a nice idea. I like and support small businesses and local companies when they provide a good service, good product, good value.

But of most of it strikes me as misconceived. Small local companies are not going to produce food and clothes and products that people need or want, on the scale needed in a world that has 7 billion people, and when many of those people have ever-increasing consuming power. Efficiency of scale is a real thing. The "small is beautiful" notion worked great in the 1950s, maybe -- or probably only much earlier -- when only a small minority of people could afford to have, say, several pairs of shoes, decent coats, etc. Everything those people bought was made by artisans, whose labor was dirt-cheap.

As for the notion that small employers are more invested in their communities, that may be true. I disagree with your view that it is an unmitigated good. It was not small local employers who effectively opposed discriminatory laws in Indiana and elsewhere. Small local employers will likely reflect biases that are prevalent in their communities; they only started seeing discrimination as a problem when big national companies said they wouldn't do business in the communities where those small companies were based.

I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.

Again, swell if you want to limit the number of people who can avoid meat to a fraction of those who can today. I support local and organic farmers. It makes my food much more expensive than it has to be. I can afford it; many people cannot.

That said, I entirely support revoking all of the bullshit subsidies that support corn syrup and soy goop manufacture. And I think that will reduce megafarms a bit. But there are megafarms in all kinds of crops, because-- again-- efficiency of scale means something.

I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.

I disagree with this entirely.

As cities have revitalized and people have moved back in, crime has gone down. Cities suffer the most when people leave, and only those who cannot afford to leave are left behind. And cities provide vibrant centers of culture and business, in ways that improve life far more than what small communities can do.

Are people isolated from their neighbors in cities? Sure. But that's true in suburbs and rural areas too. It's true everywhere.

Moreover, if you want to save the planet, you should want more cities and more density. The most energy-efficient housing is the apartment building, not the suburban house with a lawn. You can provide vastly better sanitation and transportation and energy efficiency in a city than in any less-dense living situation. That only happens when there are people in or around the cities with enough money to support them.

I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.

We've made a hell of a lot of progress, particularly given the huge increases in population and living standards. The idea that we've made nearly no progress since the early 1960s is just plain wrong, by any measure of "progress" I can think of (opportunity for women and minorities, life expectancy, world poverty.....) Even environmentally, we've made progress at producing more with less energy use and pollution. We have a long way to go in that regard, and limited time to do it -- but I suspect that artisanal solar-power makers living on family farms in Walnut Grove are not really going to save us there. We're going to need significant infrastructure and density promotion and big companies making investments in the future.

I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.

I don't think you want to return to the 19th Century. You want to move to a version of the world that has all the good of the 19th century, but none of the bad.

I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.

Reading your post reminds me of a science fiction series I read where a group decided that the only way to save the world and "return" to the kind of life and culture they wanted, which was very similar to what you want, was to kill 90% of the world population.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

I think we need downsizing. I think that we need more small businesses in all communities, with the people in those communities taking responsibility for providing the goods and services the community consumes in larger measure. I think that those smaller businesses are more likely than large global corporate employers to see themselves as invested in their communities.

I think we need more small family farms that produce food, not feedstock for the corn and soybean processors. I think we need farms that grow a variety of produce, that provide fresh meat and chickens and don't send them to massive feedlots. You know, stuff that will revitalize the soil and the people.

I think we need fewer people concentrating in urban areas that grow pockets of crime, poverty, malnutrition and poor health and sanitation.

I think in order to get smaller on a save the planet, save the human race scale, the BIG needs to come crashing down. I realize that change has to be somewhat incremental, but we've had five decades of incremental and we've made nearly no progress. We need to change more faster.

I don't want to return to the 19th Century (Hi, Sidd!). But I do want to incorporate more of that scale into our world and we can incorporate some measure of small with the BIG. But we need to do some creative destructing first, so we can grow in a better direction.

I also realize that this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. But I'm getting old enough that I feel more free to talk about what needs to be done, on at least some scale, before we run out of fuel, air, water, and Earth. I don't care if people think I an old crank any more. I also know that in your heart you know there is some truth in what I'm saying. You think we can get there eventually. I'm saying I no longer believe we will get there in time without some crashing and burning.

small or big, I like folks who believe in some good stuff and make it happen. As you can tell from your fb feed, I like people who fix up and use barns, not who leave them to the ravages of time.

But I don't worship big or small on their own. I grew up in a place where there were a lot of small minds.

But if you believe in small for its own sake, that's great. Go make some small stuff happen.