"I'm GGG and I approve this message."

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)


IP rights are a creature of statute, authorized by the constitution. Why should the rights regarding restrictions on sales be broader than for any other form of property?

Because if the sale of IP could be restricted no more than the sale of any other form of property, then Disney, Warner Bros., and Microsoft would be bankrupt tomorrow. Goddammit, please stop making me agree with Hank.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I think that there are a shitload of people in this country, black and white, that assign as much import to their ministers as they do to their family. Sometimes even more import, in the case of families that disown their gay children (black and white) on the urging of their ministers. Certainly, I've been to enough weddings where full blown fights have broken out between families on which minister will officiate.

And I have people in my life that are not related by blood that I consider family. One of them, the man I call my godfather, on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. I still love him, and I'll always love him. And, ironically enough, Barack Obama has made him reconsider some of those stereotypes.

this and SAM's one answer were at least honest, and responsive. I sort of thought you all were tired of Presidents completely tied to a religion, but who knows.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
again, if he had said "fuck. he is just my minister. ask him." I'd be okay. I mean once wonk confirms there is just the one church in chicago. but can you not agree that it's a little teensy bit different than a racist grandma?

FWIW, churches are more than the pastors that lead them. They are also, to a varying extent, the congregations that comprise them.

This will probably lead you to a condemnation of why the congregation is so fucked up that they didn't just toss out Wright, but whatever.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Because if the sale of IP could be restricted no more than the sale of any other form of property, then Disney, Warner Bros., and Microsoft would be bankrupt tomorrow. Goddammit, please stop making me agree with Hank.

Would you explain it better/more? Though this was actually helpful.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
again, if he had said "fuck. he is just my minister. ask him." I'd be okay. I mean once wonk confirms there is just the one church in chicago. but can you not agree that it's a little teensy bit different than a racist grandma?

I think that racist grandma was in that speech because most people in this country, regardless of race, have some family member, close friend or other person in their life that they can't get rid of that says shit that makes them cringe. You may not be able to relate to the minister thing, but you probably can relate to grandma.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I think that racist grandma was in that speech because most people in this country, regardless of race, have some family member, close friend or other person in their life that they can't get rid of that says shit that makes them cringe. You may not be able to relate to the minister thing, but you probably can relate to grandma.

i know why the racist grandma was in it. that wasn't my question.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
But every Jew I've ever met has been enormously welcoming -- far more so than their scriptures seem to encourage.

Come on - it's not like I blew you.

LessinDali, China

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I think I understand why the point bothers you Hank, but I'm not sure I can help you on it. I think this is sort of a gut issue where you go one way or the other.

I now qualify as religious and actively involved in a church (a _relatively_ new thing in my life) -- and to me a minister is somewhat different -- more than a friend, an authority figure a bit like a parent though not quite the same. If I had a similar situation with my priest (actually all but impossible to imagine) it would be devastating, but I am not sure what exactly I would do.

I would expect BO to have some of that perspective about Wright too, particularly given the other psychological aspects involved. BO met Wright (a much older man) when he was in his mid-20's. His father had been almost entirely absent while he was growing up -- no real black male authority figures. Wright brought him to God. And -- which is a difference between this situation and a white racist "friend" hypo -- they had enough of a shared background that I think BO can understand where Wright's racism comes from, even though he does not agree.

It would be very hard to walk away -- and part of what BO says in the speech is that a whole lot of other black churches have some of the same kind of stuff.

S_A_M

By definition, a minister has devoted his life to the irrational and insane. Why anyone cares about any of his or her opinions is beyond me, other than to immediately dismiss them as the ravings of the mentally disturbed.

LessinDali

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I sort of thought you all were tired of Presidents completely tied to a religion, but who knows.

Since you didn't answer my pointed question about why Bush is allowed to hang out with people who openly think all Jews and Catholics are condemned to Hell, and no one thinks to ask him about whether he believes this, I'll answer my own question -- because a large number of your people, combined with a small number of mine, have gradually caused all religious thought and speech to become privileged in this country. I mean privileged in the postmodern critical theory sense, not the legal sense -- it is entitled by its nature to be exempted and shielded from critical analysis. You're not supposed to think about it. You're supposed to feel it. And as to the religion of others, you're not supposed to talk about that.

So, yes, Hank, your relationship with your pastor is as sacrosanct as with your grandmother. Not because it really is, but because we made it so. Most Americans will disagree with you and agree with Obama, because they have become convinced that it's rude and hostile to call bullshit on anyone's religious beliefs and practices. You can do it on these boards because we're all members of the Cult of Reason, but I'll tell you now this is a losing argument for the rest of America. They don't want to be blamed for what their pastor says either. They don't want to have their religion criticized. Remember Mitt's speech?

L. Ron Hubbard was the greatest genius of the 20th century, because he saw this coming. He realized that if you could take a standard con man's business model and privilege it by calling it a religion, you could become untouchable. He did us a favor by making that religion as ridiculous as possible, testing the limits. He's laughing his ass off in Hell, or wherever Scientologists go. Because he was right.

Gradually, all thought will seek the protective label of "Religion." Once it achieves that label, it cannot be rooted out. You've got Equal Protection and Title VII saying that people can't judge you based on your thoughts. Think that 2+2=5? I can't do nutting fo ya, man. Believe that there is a secret invisible way that 2+2 can sometimes equal 5? I wouldn't dare fire you.

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

Originally posted by LessinSF
By definition, a minister has devoted his life to the irrational and insane. Why anyone cares about any of his or her opinions is beyond me, other than to immediately dismiss them as the ravings of the mentally disturbed.

LessinDali

2. I'm thrilled and all that we (finally) have a black man and a woman battling for a major party presidential bid. But I'll be just as thrilled, maybe more so, if we ever get to a point where the candidate can also openly disavow any belief in the supernatural.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Gattigap
FWIW, churches are more than the pastors that lead them.

Indeed. They are buildings and money machines that ought to be taxed at high rates to support the educational systems of communities they work to impede.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Of course it's pertinent. But if he said "I don't believe that bullshit about Xenu or being able to fly, or pretty much anything except that we're all responsible for our own actions" would not that also be pertinent?



Unless you're willing to include the whole part about a half-man, half-god who can't be killed and who loves us but wants well over half of us to be tortured with fire for eternity, I'm pretty sure you're full of shit on that point.

Full of Shit? CIA invented Aids? The US government engineered 9/11? America is an awful country? Etc. etc. At least Scientology has harmless fantasies. These lies attack the United States and its core beliefs. These lies give support to the arguments of the terrorists who want to kills millions of Americans. He might as well be a cheerleader for Al Qaeda.

You guys are lawyers, but you are like those stupid women following Charles Manson. Face the facts. This guy’s organization isn't just a religion, it is a political organization. If Obama was a member of Jerry Fallwell's church, donated money to his organization and called Jerry a close friend, wouldn't it be safe to assume that he believes things similar to Jerry? Wouldn't it be fair to ask if he though abortion was killing babies, if homosexuals are an abomination and evolution is a myth? And if he didn't believe those things wouldn't it be fair to ask him why he was a member of Jerry Fallwell's organization, and why he donated money to it and called Jerry a close friend when he didn't believe anything Jerry said.

This guy makes Jerry Fallwell and Bob Jones look like saints. The filth he preaches is despicable and Osama aids and abets this filth by being a member of the organization, by being a donor (so his money can be used to help spread this filth) and calling this foul human being a close friend and mentor.

Its one thing to hold someone to account for their supporters or friends, but this guy isn't just a supporter of Obama. OBAMA IS A SUPPORTER OF HIM. He donates to him and is part of his organization. And the organizations one belongs to is highly relevant to your fitness to be the leader of the free world. If he was a member of the KKK or the Aryan youth, wouldn’t you find that relevant? Is what this guy preaches any less despicable?

And don't tell me that someone's membership in Scientology would not be relevant. You would not vote for a member of Scientology to be president, as any rational human being wouldn't.

McCain criticized a radio talk show host when he constantly referred to Osama as Hussein. McCain was not his friend, never met him before, and had never donated to his organization. Yet he felt compelled to criticize him and disavow him. Obama should either state that this man is a pig, and his views are heinous and despicable, and quit his church, or he is not fit to serve as a postman let alone leader of the free world.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan


But even more fundamentally, I'd rather have a leader who understands that there are people in this country who think that "God damn America" is more appropriate than "God bless America" than a leader that pretends that we're all hunky dory and can't imagine a better life. Or worse, tells them to love it or leave it.

And more importantly, I think that he understands why some people feel that way. And instead of feeling hopeless about it, instead of accepting the status quo, he wants to talk about it with more candor than I've ever seen from any political figure, ever, on any subject. And I think, and I think a lot of other people think, that by talking about it and laying it all out there, we're taking a massive first step in trying to actually do something about it, instead of pretending it doesn't exist.

ETA: I once lived and worked in Berkeley, in the flats, though I never went to school there. That may influence your reading of this post.

Yes we also have racists, the KKK and a communist party. Those people hate American and we have to understand that. We should try and figure out what causes these people to hate America so much. But does that mean we have to excuse their behavior? Does that mean we have to support them? donate to their organizations? Call their leaders our close friends and associates? There is no excuse for what this guy preaches. None. Being the vicitm of racism does not give you carte blanche to spread vicious lies that give aid and comfort to our enemies. Yes, he has a right to say those things, but we should expect more from our leaders, than to donate to and belong to organizations that such people run.

Racism does not excuse anything this guy says or does.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by LessinSF
By definition, a minister has devoted his life to the irrational and insane. Why anyone cares about any of his or her opinions is beyond me, other than to immediately dismiss them as the ravings of the mentally disturbed.

LessinDali

Irrational and insane religion is not. Religion is a psychological coping mechanism designed to get around the fear of death. It's rational and sane to create something to get around your fears if it gives you comfort.

And that's the real handle with religion that makes the religious so quick to anger when pressed on the absurdity of what they believe. On the most fundamental level, they're screwed by their luck in the scheme of natural selection. Deep down, accruing from the cranial horsepower they'd rather not have, they're jammed up with the knowledge that yes, of course religion is bullshit.

Fundamentalists should be lobotomized, or have their brains clinically brain damaged. This would save them a lot of Sundays.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
You may not realize it, but you're being ethnocentric here, which is what I was hinting at in my post. WASPs can afford to shop for religions that fit their politics exactly. Not so for Catholics, Jews, and African-Americans, because these are people for whom religion is not supposed to a precise reflection of their individual consciences -- it is a discipline to which they apply themselves. Or which becomes an aspect of their identity, but which they generally ignore except as to generalities. Like me and Catholicism.

In case you hadn't noticed, African Americans belong to many different Protestant demonations in this country and often change their demonations. As Hank implied, there are many churches in Chicago attended by African Americans, where the leader of said Church do not spew this hateful and despicable stuff. Obama could have chosen any of those. To imply otherwise is complete B.S.