Welcome back E/O, leagl and Fringey: no one say the name "Penske" 3 times in a row

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Honestly, I do not know if a pre-existing belief in effecicacy is required for a placebo effect.

Only for a placicebo effect.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

In that case, I return to asking you to define "placebo." Because if something is effective, when you have serious doubts that it will be, and it has been effective on many people for a very long time, that seems to me to be the opposite of "placebo," at least in the way you were using it.


And since the definition, per dictionary.com, is "a substance having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine," then yeah -- I'm going with the idea that it's "fooling yourself." I'm not sure what you intended the word to mean.

Well, you seem to be drifting towards an argument that something being effective means it is not a placebo. I just glanced at those studies I found, but I think that the whole point was to put needles in the wrong places to see if that had any effect on the efficacy of the treatment, and those studies suggested that it did not. So, assuming that the acupuncture is supposedly effective because of the correct placement of needles, wouldn't that be an example of a placebo effect and a good working definition? The people with needles in the right place and the people with needles in the wrong place got the same results. Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

And since the definition, per dictionary.com, is "a substance having no pharmacological effect but given merely to satisfy a patient who supposes it to be a medicine," then yeah -- I'm going with the idea that it's "fooling yourself." I'm not sure what you intended the word to mean.

I think "fooling yourself" implies some negativity that is inappropriate to associate with placebo effect. I don't see anything wrong with "fool yourself" into not having pain, for example.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.

doesn't this mean it isn't a placebo effect, but instead convential acupuncture wisdom is wrong about where to put the needles?

think about it.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

doesn't this mean it isn't a placebo effect, but instead convential acupuncture wisdom is wrong about where to put the needles?

think about it.

I am not going to think about it because I feel certain that doing so will make me dumber.

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

unless this is an orgasm or a damn fine hallucinogenic experience, no way. Xanax is divine.

2.

[PresentTense Pirate Penske]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

are we only counting actual paras or do pseudo-paras cum secretaries count too?

I ran out of fingers......npi

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by PresentTense Pirate Penske

I ran out of fingers......npi

Indeed:



You could use the other hand instead.

[PresentTense Pirate Penske]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Indeed:



You could use the other hand instead.

I was using it to grope my paralegal.

[evenodds]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yes, kind of figured you for the submissive.

I know, I am such a cliché.

Unchecked, I tend to ride roughshod, so I like a man with a firm grip on the reins.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Well, you seem to be drifting towards an argument that something being effective means it is not a placebo.

A placebo may be effective, but is unlikely to be consistently effective

I just glanced at those studies I found, but I think that the whole point was to put needles in the wrong places to see if that had any effect on the efficacy of the treatment, and those studies suggested that it did not. So, assuming that the acupuncture is supposedly effective because of the correct placement of needles, wouldn't that be an example of a placebo effect and a good working definition? The people with needles in the right place and the people with needles in the wrong place got the same results. Or, with the example of the fertility treatment, the people with the needles in the wrong place had better results.

Those studies would indicate placebo -- no pharmacological effect, but a benefit because people think they are doing something helpful.

Looking to studies is a little different than going on gut feel. I'm don't have any response to the studies because no one is willing to pay me to read them, or research studies that may have different findings.

[Replaced_Texan]

I thought of Sebby when I was listening to this story on the 50th anniversary of Naked Lunch.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

Those studies would indicate placebo -- no pharmacological effect, but a benefit because people think they are doing something helpful.

Looking to studies is a little different than going on gut feel. I'm don't have any response to the studies because no one is willing to pay me to read them, or research studies that may have different findings.

Deplorable mania, when something happens, to inquire what.
-- Samuel Beckett

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch

Deplorable mania, when something happens, to inquire what.
-- Samuel Beckett

I had a similar conversation offline with another poster here just this afternoon. (confidential to Hank: Hi!)

[PresentTense Pirate Penske]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

I had a similar conversation offline with another poster here just this afternoon. (confidential to Hank: Hi!)

transcript please?